Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

[polonius]

Is the Bible or the Pope in error here?

Romans 3:23 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
" since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

OR

Ineffabilis Deus
Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
“Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.�

[marco]

Your metaphoric apologetics
trumps my case for natural genetics
You've reduced my points to pure phonetics
and win the bout with sly aesthetics

So we are doing Bible "versus" Pope in poetic fashion now.


Honest DI, you versify
And give me praise undue,
I simply read and then proceed
To take a guess, like you.
Though many claim that Mary's name
Comes short of the divine,
It's not too odd, if Christ was God,
That she deserves to shine.
But though the Pope, through faith and hope,
Gave her a wondrous song,
It seems to me we both agree
His Holiness was wrong.


But that doesn't mean I think the Bible is right. We can all be wrong! Best regards.

[Divine Insight]

So we are doing Bible "versus" Pope in poetic fashion now.

I propose this should be the new forum rule.

A Pious Virgin Birth
by Divine Insight

It doesn't mean the Bible's right
or anyone is wrong
it simply means that theist's fight
to keep their dogma strong

Mary had a little lamb
it's fleece was white as snow
and this has been the Papal scam
from ages long ago

Believers flock to worship Her
and become Her slavish sheep
renouncing those who won't believe
as refusing to be meek

Her Son is but an omen
of Her essence so Divine
and those who cannot see this
are condemned as evil slime

And so it goes
as religion grows
to contaminate the earth

It all began
as a Papal scam
of a pious virgin birth

[brianbbs67]

You guys crack me up.
Even when I am at Sup
your wistful folly
makes many jolly
Continue the volumous Lump.

[marco]

It all began
as a Papal scam
of a pious virgin birth

When Pope plays God I call it fraud
So let me make it clear
There are no 'shes' with God degrees
However things appear.
Talk of a son is just a pun
For here I shine alone.
The boy was sent with my consent
To soften hearts of stone.
Insight divine is wholly mine,
It's I you must applaud,
For every phrase that earns praise
Comes from .... YOURS TRULY, GOD.


(By kind permission from heaven.)

[Divine Insight]

It all began
as a Papal scam
of a pious virgin birth

When Pope plays God I call it fraud
So let me make it clear
There are no 'shes' with God degrees
However things appear.
Talk of a son is just a pun
For here I shine alone.
The boy was sent with my consent
To soften hearts of stone.
Insight divine is wholly mine,
It's I you must applaud,
For every phrase that earns praise
Comes from .... YOURS TRULY, GOD.


(By kind permission from heaven.)

Reply to God
by Divine Insight

Hey God! It's strange to hear from you
we thought that you were dead
your boy has caused confusion
leaving theists banging heads

They argue 'bout his birth
and argue 'bout his death
and argue 'bout your character
'til they're almost out of breath

There's grave confusion here on earth
about the reason why he came
and even more uncertainty
concerning who's to blame

Are the Pharisees the culprits?
or those nasty Roman soldiers?
or does every human bear the blame
upon their mortal shoulders?

Are we cursed with Adam's sin?
or Eve's benign beguile?
or will we answer for ourselves
when we're finally put on trial?

Your message is unclear
and your tactics so severe
I hope that you'll excuse us
for thinking that you're queer

We question your intelligence
and your ability to love
it seems that all you understand
is a plot of push and shove

Why do you kill children?
and allow them to be born
into hateful families
who's behavior you should scorn?

Your example isn't pretty
and your tactics are so gory
yet just like Donald Trump
you demand your fame and glory

It's no wonder you've been hiding
for many years on end
I imagine it's quite lonely
when you cannot find a friend

Your ego isn't nearly
as important as you think
either see a Buddhist
or your nearest local shrink

Once you come to realize
that you're nothing without us
please come back to see us
as we'll have something to discuss

[brianbbs67]

ha. But, Divine, thats all free will. No intervention, until necessary for His will. He remains silent because that's how its was set up. Decisions have consequences. Funny thing, choice. No free will, if we are all directed?

[Divine Insight]

ha. But, Divine, thats all free will. No intervention, until necessary for His will. He remains silent because that's how its was set up. Decisions have consequences. Funny thing, choice. No free will, if we are all directed?

What does God placing new babies in hateful families have to do with free will?

Before you answer questions that have been directed toward a God you need have a far deeper understanding of those questions than you apparently currently have.

Clearly these questions weren't aimed to you. And for good reason.

Keep in mind also that this God placed new babies in wombs and families of an evil corrupt culture that he knew he would be drowning via a great flood.

So I suggest you let God answer the questions that are directed toward God.

Free will doesn't help this situation.

~~~~~~

Also, we can even take this further into what might seem like a far less severe situation, but one that is also quite profound.

Would it be a violation of your child's free will if you spend time mentoring them and teaching them properly? I don't think so.

You don't need to run off and refuse to let your child know that you exist in order to allow them to have free will right? In fact, if you did that you could be charged with child neglect.

So free will is no excuse for a God who refuses to be there for his children. Behaving that way actually shows that he's an incompetent parent guilty of child neglect.

~~~~~~

Finally, if you tell your child not to eat something because it's poison and you leave out out where the child can easily get it. And then you leave, and when you return you discover that your child had eaten the poison. What would you do?

Would you go into an anger tantrum cursing your child with even more harm? Would you then kick your child out of your house and tell them to go and live in a wild jungle for not obeying your commands?

Personally I wouildn't think much at all of any parent who would behave in such a fashion. Obviously either the parent failed to make the danger clear, or failed to keep hazardous materials out of the child's reach.

Blaming a child for bad parenting skills does nothing constructive. All it amounts to is a parent who refuses to own up to their own responsibility as a parent.

So don't make excuses for the Biblical God. Let the Biblical God answer for himself. And if he has no answer or cannot answer, then so be it.

Free will is no excuse. That's just a lame cop-out invented by religious apologists who couldn't come up with a better excuse for their irresponsible invisible God who plays hide and seek with his children instead of raising them properly.

A God who cannot be trusted to be a good parent.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 47 by Divine Insight]

Sorry, I forgot I was inferior.

Those babies were placed there by the choices of their parents. Not a God. I mean unless he told them too. Then He would bear responsibility. We bear responsibility for what we do as people. So, that allows for bad and poor choices and neglect and anything else bad you can insert here.

Children are definately can be made bad by bad parents, not anything else. But, after much time has past, their decisions are theirs. They choose to be bad. You can not blame your parents for your problems, good or bad. At some point, you need to realize you have problems because of your decisions.

I think the "tree" was a teaching moment. The world is rife with danger and we need to be aware a simple choice could kill you. I remember having to tell my youngest to stop trying to touch things on the stove as she would surely be burned. She did not listen, I had to watch her like a hawk as a result. One day, after dinner, the burners were still hot but had been off for 15 minutes. So hot, but not too hot. I looked from the living room and saw her reaching for a burner with her finger. This time I said nothing. She touched it and recoiled immediately. No damage, not a blister, but after that, she never did it again.

[Divine Insight]

Those babies were placed there by the choices of their parents. Not a God. I mean unless he told them too. Then He would bear responsibility. We bear responsibility for what we do as people. So, that allows for bad and poor choices and neglect and anything else bad you can insert here.

But now you can't claim that God creates everyone. Now you have humans choosing whether or not to create new humans. Humans become the "Creators" now.

In fact, I personally chose to not have any children. In other words, I chose to not create a living human soul. God would have no choice in that. Moreover, the reason I chose not to have children was because I didn't want to expose them to a nasty world where I could not insure their safety.

So apparently I have higher moral values than a God who allows irresponsible people to create children who then may suffer greatly in this world, and potentially even be condemned to eternal suffering in the next.

So I become morally superior to God simply because I show greater compassion for humans souls than God does.

This becomes a major problem for this theology then.

We can't have a mere mortal human caring more about human souls than God.

Children are definately can be made bad by bad parents, not anything else. But, after much time has past, their decisions are theirs. They choose to be bad. You can not blame your parents for your problems, good or bad. At some point, you need to realize you have problems because of your decisions.

The problem is that many children don't live long enough to mature to that level. So once again this is a problem for your theology.

I think the "tree" was a teaching moment. The world is rife with danger and we need to be aware a simple choice could kill you. I remember having to tell my youngest to stop trying to touch things on the stove as she would surely be burned. She did not listen, I had to watch her like a hawk as a result. One day, after dinner, the burners were still hot but had been off for 15 minutes. So hot, but not too hot. I looked from the living room and saw her reaching for a burner with her finger. This time I said nothing. She touched it and recoiled immediately. No damage, not a blister, but after that, she never did it again.

Sorry but I don't see where this would have anything to do with defending a God. The God you're trying to defend doesn't even protect his children from extreme disasters and 3rd degree burns.

What about the cute little girl who curiously reached up to see what was in a pan on the stove and spilled 6 quarts of boiling molasses on her face. Causing her to suffer extreme pain and end up having a disfigured face for the rest of her life.

A nice little girl who would never disobey her mommy.

Did this little girl deserve this?

Sorry, but your God doesn't care about anyone.

How are you going to use "Free Will" as an excuse for this God in this situation? The little girl wasn't choosing to intentionally disobey God.

So there is no excuse for your God in this situation. Period.

And in this case, the little girl's parents could have been the best parents in the world. Being mortal and not omniscient, they simply had no clue that their little girl was going to reach up and grab the handle on the pan.

No sinners required. This little girl and her parents end up getting punished for life when they haven't done anything wrong.

So much for the perfect justice of your make-believe invisible God.

I'm way superior to this God in terms of morality. I would not allow for this to have happened if I was an omniscience omnipotent creator.

Therefore we can ask: Am I really superior to a God?

And the obvious answer should be: No, of course not.

Therefore there can only be ONE conclusion: There is no God.

That's the only conclusion that makes any sense.

[brianbbs67]

What is wrong with us creating ourselves?? Was that not intended ? It seems you believe that if somehow a higher power exists, he should save you from your self?