Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

[polonius]

Is the Bible or the Pope in error here?

Romans 3:23 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
" since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

OR

Ineffabilis Deus
Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
“Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.�

[marco]

But what the Vatican really believe and conventional Christianity is not tantamount to each other. You know that people can pretend to stand for something just to further their agenda. The early Catholic Church incorporated paganism into the church to lure pagan converts. Nothing has changed.

Roman Catholicism IS conventional Christianity from which there are many offshoots. Roman Catholicism preserved the books on which we base our opinion of Christ; the Church teaches its members about Christ, presents the same gospels as other Christians and its members are able to make a judgement on Christ through having access, courtesy of the Church, to his Good News. Conspiracy theories abound. If it has a trunk, leaves of a fixed form and sheds acorns then it is an oak tree, Claire.

[dianaiad]

But what the Vatican really believe and conventional Christianity is not tantamount to each other. You know that people can pretend to stand for something just to further their agenda. The early Catholic Church incorporated paganism into the church to lure pagan converts. Nothing has changed.

Roman Catholicism IS conventional Christianity from which there are many offshoots. Roman Catholicism preserved the books on which we base our opinion of Christ; the Church teaches its members about Christ, presents the same gospels as other Christians and its members are able to make a judgement on Christ through having access, courtesy of the Church, to his Good News. Conspiracy theories abound. If it has a trunk, leaves of a fixed form and sheds acorns then it is an oak tree, Claire.

I have to agree with you here, Marco; Catholicism (or rather, Orthodoxy with a capital "O") IS 'conventional Christianity,' in every meaning of the word.

I do have to shake my head at those who just forget about 1.5 BILLION people when describing 'conventional' Christianity.

Mind you, I don't necessarily equate "conventional" with "right about everything," but then I am a decidedly unconventional Christian.

[marco]

I have to agree with you here, Marco; Catholicism (or rather, Orthodoxy with a capital "O") IS 'conventional Christianity,' in every meaning of the word.

I do have to shake my head at those who just forget about 1.5 BILLION people when describing 'conventional' Christianity.

Mind you, I don't necessarily equate "conventional" with "right about everything," but then I am a decidedly unconventional Christian.

Of course, as Einstein pointed out, numbers don't mean rightness, but I think if you're looking for Christianity you'll find it conventionally growing in Italy. The beautiful sculptures and dignified pictures in the many churches show how the message has inspired great artists. I can be impressed and it's not with the son I take issue but his dad.

[ttruscott]

Mary does not enjoy among Mulsims the near-divine status she has among Christians. One wonders whether she was born without stain of Adam's sin. Or did she live a sinless life, hence her favour with God?

The near divine status of Mary is a Catholic doctrine only, which many Protestants feel is overblown. I accept that no one was born stained by Adam's sin and such a doctrine is a blasphemy with no purpose, reasonable or unreasonable, behind it, but alas, I am in a minority.

Did she live a sinless life? With no confirmation, the doctrine that all humans are sinful must take precedence. No magic must be performed to keep Christ sinless as no one receives their sinfulness from anyone ls, especially Adam.

As to why she was favoured to be the Christ's mother in His human incarnation, nothing is said so nothing is known.

[ttruscott]

Jesus is one with the Father. Jesus is God. Yet when Jesus returns to heaven he sits at the right-hand of God. Yet another contradiction.

Jesus is in total Divine Unity with both the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where He sits has nothing to do with that Unity.

Here's another one.

Heaven is supposed to be a spiritual realm, but Jesus takes his physical body up to heaven with him. Yet another contradiction.

There is a natural body which does not inherit heaven and a spiritual body which does inhabit heaven. A spirit body is more than a ghost or a physical human but has certain qualities of a physical body such as being able to eat and drink and corporeal soldity if the person so desires.

In Christianity there's no point in rejecting contradictions, because as soon as we do that there's nothing left of the theology.

A lack of understanding, wilful or otherwise, doesn't prove a contradiction.

[marco]

As to why she was favoured to be the Christ's mother in His human incarnation, nothing is said so nothing is known.

If she was like everybody else but simply used as a vessel for bearing Christ then she deserves sympathy, not honour.

However, Gabriel suggested she was highly favoured, and on this commendation she merits honour. If we want to deduce she was a sinless receptacle, that too is reasonable.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

I think you need to lay off the anti-Catholic tracts. Yes, Catholicism is different than every other Christian denomination, because she is Christ's established church. Everyone else is offshoots.

As for pagan ideas -- that is Protestant spin. It is unfounded and simply an attempt to justify not remaining with Christ's appointed church.

[Claire Evans]

But what the Vatican really believe and conventional Christianity is not tantamount to each other. You know that people can pretend to stand for something just to further their agenda. The early Catholic Church incorporated paganism into the church to lure pagan converts. Nothing has changed.

Roman Catholicism IS conventional Christianity from which there are many offshoots. Roman Catholicism preserved the books on which we base our opinion of Christ; the Church teaches its members about Christ, presents the same gospels as other Christians and its members are able to make a judgement on Christ through having access, courtesy of the Church, to his Good News. Conspiracy theories abound. If it has a trunk, leaves of a fixed form and sheds acorns then it is an oak tree, Claire.

The Bible does not preach that Mary is the mother of God and that she did not have children.

The Church believes that Peter is the foundation of the Church, not Mary.

Confessionals aren't biblical.

These are some of the answers. It would be absurd to create a brand new religion therefore they have subtle digressions from the gospel.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

I think you need to lay off the anti-Catholic tracts. Yes, Catholicism is different than every other Christian denomination, because she is Christ's established church. Everyone else is offshoots.

As for pagan ideas -- that is Protestant spin. It is unfounded and simply an attempt to justify not remaining with Christ's appointed church.

Since when is Catholicism Christ's established church? It only came into existence in the 4th century AD.

I'll give you two examples of paganism in Catholicism. First confessionals. It was a pagan practice by the Babylonian brotherhood. People confessed to these high priests so that the priests had "dirt" on them.


"The clerical power of the Roman priesthood culminated in the erection of the confessional. That confessional was itself borrowed from Babylon. The confession required of the votaries of Rome is entirely different from the confession prescribed in the Word of God. The dictate of Scripture in regard to confession is, “Confess your faults one to another� (James 5:16), which implies that the priest should confess to the people, as well as the people to the priest, if either should sin against the other. This could never have served any purpose of spiritual despotism; and therefore, Rome, leaving the Word of God, has had recourse to the Babylonian system. In that system, secret confession to the priest, according to a prescribed form, was required of all who were admitted to the “Mysteries�; and till such confession had been made, no complete initiation could take place.

The pretence under which this auricular (spoken into the ear) confession was required, was, that the (Pagan) solemnities to which the initiated were to be admitted were so high, so heavenly, so holy, that no man with guilt lying on his conscience, and sin unpurged, could lawfully be admitted to them. For the safety, therefore of those who were to be initiated, it was held to be indispensable that the officiating priest should thoroughly probe their consciences, lest coming without due purgation from previous guilt contracted, the wrath of the gods should be provoked against the profane intruders. This was the pretence; but when we know the essentially unholy nature, both of the gods and their worship, who can fail to see that this was nothing more than a pretence; that the grand object in requiring the candidates for initiation to make confession to the priest of all their secret faults and shortcomings and sins, was just to put them entirely in the power of those to whom the inmost feelings of their souls and their most important secrets were confided? Now, exactly in the same way, and for the very same purposes, has Rome erected the confessional. Instead of requiring priests and people alike, as the Scripture does, to “confess their faults one to another,� when either have offended the other, it commands all, on pain of perdition, to confess to the priest, * whether they have transgressed against him or no, while the priest is under no obligation to confess to the people at all."

http://www.jamesjpn.net/roman-catholici ... -religion/

And the wafer:

"1. Roman Catholic Church's Eucharist wafer, where there is letters IHS. Catholic church of Rome says these letters is for the Latin: "Iesus Hominum Salvatore", which mean Jesus Saviour of the people.

Circular breads (cakes) were offered also to the queen of the heaven in Babylon. People in Egypt worshipped sun and on the altars of Egypt were circular sun shaped wafers made from unleavened bread. Egyptians priests prayed above these wafers, to make them as holy. This bread represented the body of sun god and in middle were initialing IHS (Isis, Horus, Seb, Egyptian trinity). Then they told to the people, that miracle had taken place. They said that wafers have changed for the flesh of sun god Osiris and after it the nation ate its god. This Egyptian bread god ritual points out perfectly Roman Catholic Church Eucharist, in which catholic priests changes wafer for Jesus Christ. Catholic church's roots in Eucharist are in heathen religions and not in teaching of the Bible."

http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/IHSwafer.html

This has spread in other denominations.

[marco]

The Bible does not preach that Mary is the mother of God and that she did not have children.

Yet Luke reports: "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." The Church simply repeats these words and in so doing seems to incur your disfavour.

The Church believes that Peter is the foundation of the Church, not Mary.

That is true. Mary had nothing to do with founding the Church. She is honoured for being the mother of Jesus.

Confessionals aren't biblical.

John 20:23 " Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. "

This power did not absurdly stop with the death of the first disciples.

These are some of the answers.

And these are the answers to the answers. At least they give biblical support for what the Church does.