Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

[polonius]

Is the Bible or the Pope in error here?

Romans 3:23 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
" since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

OR

Ineffabilis Deus
Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
“Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.�

[marco]

First the salutation from the angle Gabriel "hail " indicates a status higher than himself, so she ranks higher than Gabriel according to this point. Second like other people in the Bible Gabriel addresses her with a new name "Full of Grace." This is a title given to her by God. Mary was named this because of what God worked in her before the conception of Jesus, so God the Father worked in the Virgin Mary an exemption to original sin at the moment she was conceived, so she also wouldn't be tainted by concupiscience. These states of being would exclude her from being "Full of Grace", and make God the Father a lier.

It's a nice little summary and why shouldn't you believe this? It is in full accord with the surrounding stories. It is important to see that there is at least consistency in Church intentions to honour Mary. So if we are able to accept Scripture, accepting the honour given to Mary is, I think, a sine qua non, else she would be an abused human, a piece of incidental matter. But if an angel glorifies her, who are men to withhold honour?

[Jack]

The Immaculate Conception is the same state of being that Adam and Eve were created in. The difference is Adam and Eve were disobedient to God, and Mary and Jesus were obedient to God. Even when they were facing death.

[Jack]

Also Elizabeth exclaimed how is it that the mother of my Lord comes to me? Who is the Lord she is referring to is it Herod, Zacharia, Cezar? No it is God the Son, if Elizabeth recognizes Mary as the Mother of God under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who are we to argue with scripture? Isn't it the Word of God?

[Claire Evans]

I think you are misinterpreting the scriptures.

Snap! I am presenting a view that is every bit as sensible as yours. It is then a matter of choice which argument one follows. Let us not say we are guided by God, or truth or Scripture.

If Mary was the mother of Jesus and Jesus was God then Mary bore a god. If you wish to argue that Jesus wasn't God, that's a new game.

So you are saying Mary existed before God to create Him? Make no mistake, Jesus was a separate entity from God on earth but in heaven is one and the same as the Holy Spirit. Mary was an earthly being.

If Christ gave his disciples the power to hear and forgive sins, then it is reasonable to accept that this power was passed on. The format of hearing is irrelevant; the Church has chosen to give those who are confessing a degree of privacy. Why not?[/quote]

Forgiving by a person means letting go of a grudge. It doesn't mean people can wipe others clean from sin. Only the Son can do that:

Luke 5:21-26

And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason saying, 'Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?' But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, 'Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier to say, your sins have been forgiven you, or to say rise and walk? But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,' He said to the paralytic, 'I say to you, rise and take up your stretcher and go home.' And at once he rose up before them and took up what he had been lying on and went home glorifying God. And they were all seized with astonishment and began glorifying God and they were filled with fear, saying, 'We have seen remarkable things today.'"

Therefore a priest does not have the authority to forgive another for they have not been wronged.

[Jack]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

The sacrments are given to the church by Jesus . They are visible signs that Jesus works his miracles through. Confession is administered by a priest in the person of Jesus Christ. This means Jesus Christ uses the priest as the visible sign in place of Himself, but it is Jesus that is forgiving the sins .

[Jack]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

2 Cor 5 18 "All this is from God who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. The" us" who have the ministry are the apostles and the apostles are the predecessors of the magistrate of the Church.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

The sacrments are given to the church by Jesus . They are visible signs that Jesus works his miracles through. Confession is administered by a priest in the person of Jesus Christ. This means Jesus Christ uses the priest as the visible sign in place of Himself, but it is Jesus that is forgiving the sins .

How is this biblical? Since when is a priest a conduit of Jesus when it comes to forgiving sins?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

2 Cor 5 18 "All this is from God who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. The" us" who have the ministry are the apostles and the apostles are the predecessors of the magistrate of the Church.

How is the ministry of reconciliation related to confessionals?

[marco]

So you are saying Mary existed before God to create Him? Make no mistake, Jesus was a separate entity from God on earth but in heaven is one and the same as the Holy Spirit. Mary was an earthly being.

I can make no sense of this. Jesus was conceived mystically; Mary was his mother. She deserves some honour for this alone. She is not a goddess; she is not worshipped; she is shown great respect. Objection?

Forgiving by a person means letting go of a grudge. It doesn't mean people can wipe others clean from sin. Only the Son can do that: Therefore a priest does not have the authority to forgive another for they have not been wronged.

Then you must take this up with John, who disagrees with you. John 20:23 says:


"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." That seems clear enough.

[Jack]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

Hi Claire

John 20, 21-23 Jesus said to them again, peace be with you. As the Father sent me so I send you. And when He said this He breathed on them, and said to them, receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any they are retained.

Jesus being raised from the dead he was commissioning the Apostles to continue his work before he went back to the Father. Jesus was sent to be the one true mediator between God and man, to infallibility proclaim the gospel, to reign supreme as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and especially to redeem the world through the forgiveness of sins.

In John 20, 21-23 Jesus is giving us the sacrament of confession one of 7sacraments and gives his apostles and their successors charge of it.