Why do fertility drugs work?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 66 times
Contact:

Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #1

Post by OnceConvinced »

I hope I haven't already done a thread on this topic, but forgive me if I have.

The bible teaches us that every life is planned by God and that we are all knitted together in our mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13)

It also tells us that babies are a gift/blessing from God.' (Psalm 127:3)

If the above verses are true then how is it that fertility drugs can possibly work?

Why would God bless them with a child when they were clearly trying to work around his system?

People sometimes end up with multiple births when using these drugs and they can get multiple blessings. Surely this should never happen if the bible is correct?

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9129
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #11

Post by bluethread »

OnceConvinced wrote:
The bible teaches us that every life is planned by God and that we are all knitted together in our mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13)
"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb."(KJV)
It also tells us that babies are a gift/blessing from God.' (Psalm 127:3)
"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward."
If the above verses are true then how is it that fertility drugs can possibly work?
First, they don't always work. That said, why do these poetic verses lead you to believe that fertility drugs should not work?
Why would God bless them with a child when they were clearly trying to work around his system?
What system is that? Please, give a detailed explanation of Adonai's system?
People sometimes end up with multiple births when using these drugs and they can get multiple blessings. Surely this should never happen if the bible is correct?
Well, the word is sakar which means reward or wages, not b'rucha, which means blessing. However, either way, why should your scenario not happen?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 9 by rikuoamero]


QUESTION Does the idea of God being "omniscient" in nature negate the ability to be selective in his use of His powers?

Many believe that because God is "omniscient" he is obliged to know everything at any moment in time. This is far from the case, and to understand God's ability to be selective in his use of his powers, we need to first examine what is meant by the world "omniscient" or "all knowing". Note a dictionary definition of the word omniscient:
1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge
Note it does not say "using" but "having" "possessed of" the power (to know everything). If one has something is he obliged to use it all the time? If someone has (or possed) all cars that exists do you have to drive them?
God's being "all knowing " (omniscient) is a description of his abilities, his nature; He is "all knowing" in the same way as He is "all powerful", ie there is nothing he cannot know or do, NOT that there is nothing he does not know or do. This essentially amounts to God's omniscience being inherent.

To illustrate An omnivore ("all eating") such as a human, does not have to eat everything until he has eaten everything on earth, it means he CAN eat any type of food. An all knowing (all knowing) God can know everything, it doesn't necessarily mean he has to chose to. Chosing not to know at any given time no more stops him from being all knowing in nature, than turning down a steak dinner stops a man from being an omnivor.

CONCLUSION There is nothing in the bibe that negates an inherent omniscient reading and much to support it.






RELATED POSTS



Does God "changing his mind" mean that he ' He failed to get it right the first time'?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p895644

How can a perfect God "regret"?
viewtopic.php?p=1014669#p1014669

Can God lie?
viewtopic.php?p=1064157#p1064157

Can God forget things ?
viewtopic.php?p=1047561#p1047561

Is God SELECTIVE in his use of his powers of foreknowledge?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p848314

Can a omnipotent God have desires?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p840881

Does God have moral agency?
viewtopic.php?p=974511#p974511
To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #13

Post by 1213 »

OnceConvinced wrote:Who would believe something as absurd as species developing by coincidence? I know of know believer in evolution that thinks that. I think you have a giant misunderstanding of evolution there.
In scientific point of view, all life was born by coincidence and evolution is greatly based on positive mutations that are, by what I know, coincidental. But the part that fittest survives, I can understand it is not coincidental.
OnceConvinced wrote:Why would he when he can just say Abracadabra and have them fertile?
I believe God has good reason for that, but unfortunately, I don’t know the answer for this right now. And probably the answer is not same for all. :)
OnceConvinced wrote:
1213 wrote: I don’t think God needs that.
But isn’t it true that fertility drugs don’t work always?
How is that relevant to the discussion?
It is relevant, because if the drug is really something that scientifically works, it should work always in same situation. In nature thing go like that. If it can’t be repeated, it is not scientifically confirmed matter.
OnceConvinced wrote:BTW, so far your argument has not addressed the question of why God would bless anyone with multiple births when they didn't have the faith or the patience to wait for God's timing.
The problem with that is, how do we really know what is God’s timing, it could have gone just as God intended it. Also in your partners case. If her faith to God relies on getting what she wants from God, right when she wants, I think it is not good and righteous. And in Biblical point of view righteousness is what matters.
OnceConvinced wrote:Bear in mind many people that use these drugs are not believers in God. So why would God bless those people? If it was to have them gain faith in God, it certainly didn't work for my partner. In fact all it showed her was that if you wanted something done, you took action yourself, and waiting on a god to do something was a complete waste of time.

Bible says: “But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust�.

Mat. 5:44-45

On basis of the Bible, God loves all and gives this life also for those who hate Him.

But interesting thing is, you say your partner could have got faith, if he would have gotten baby. She got it, but apparently no faith? Now, I don’t think getting baby would have had any affect on her faith, in any case. After all, even without fertility treatment, there is always natural explanations that person can choose rather than believe in God. And believing in God is not really that important, righteousness is, and getting baby doesn’t necessary make person righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 66 times
Contact:

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #14

Post by OnceConvinced »

bluethread wrote:
First, they don't always work.
That's beside the point. Drugs are not always 100% successful.

bluethread wrote: That said, why do these poetic verses lead you to believe that fertility drugs should not work?
Taking a drug is working around God's natural system and gaining additional blessings that weren't originally intended for them.
bluethread wrote:
Why would God bless them with a child when they were clearly trying to work around his system?
What system is that? Please, give a detailed explanation of Adonai's system?
why should your scenario not happen?
So far you have not answered any of my questions. Please answer them before adding anymore of your own.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 66 times
Contact:

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #15

Post by OnceConvinced »

1213 wrote:
OnceConvinced wrote:Who would believe something as absurd as species developing by coincidence? I know of know believer in evolution that thinks that. I think you have a giant misunderstanding of evolution there.
In scientific point of view, all life was born by coincidence
I have never heard the word "coincidence" being used by evolutionists. That word comes with a lot of connotations. The word "coincidence" seems to imply that there is some kind of intended goal of evolution, which there is not.
1213 wrote: and evolution is greatly based on positive mutations that are, by what I know, coincidental. But the part that fittest survives, I can understand it is not coincidental.
Coincidental is completely the wrong word. Mutations occur. That is part of the way this planet works. There will be reasons why they occur. Either way we don't call them coincidences. Ironically mutations are a natural reality of life.

What some may see as "coincidence" in more of an inevitable outcome.

1213 wrote:
OnceConvinced wrote:
1213 wrote: I don’t think God needs that.
But isn’t it true that fertility drugs don’t work always?
How is that relevant to the discussion?
It is relevant, because if the drug is really something that scientifically works, it should work always in same situation. In nature thing go like that. If it can’t be repeated, it is not scientifically confirmed matter.
Since when was any drug fool proof? Since when was a drug developed that worked in every possible scenario? God however is fool proof isn't he? If he wants to make a woman fertile and give birth, it's going to work every time. He doesn't need to rely on manmade solutions.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
bluethread
Savant
Posts: 9129
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #16

Post by bluethread »

OnceConvinced wrote:
bluethread wrote:
First, they don't always work.
That's beside the point. Drugs are not always 100% successful.
Then I might not understand your point, but maybe the rest of your point will clear this up.

bluethread wrote: That said, why do these poetic verses lead you to believe that fertility drugs should not work?
Taking a drug is working around God's natural system and gaining additional blessings that weren't originally intended for them.
According to whom? Last time I checked, humans and chemicals were part of the natural system.
bluethread wrote:
Why would God bless them with a child when they were clearly trying to work around his system?
What system is that? Please, give a detailed explanation of Adonai's system?
why should your scenario not happen?
So far you have not answered any of my questions. Please answer them before adding anymore of your own.
The reason I have not answered them is because they are all why questions that include presumptions that don't necessarily follow. Therefore, I will not tell you when I stopped beating my wife, until you show how it is you think I beat her in the first place. I see no contradiction between the passages you quoted and the use of fertility drugs.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #17

Post by Tcg »

OnceConvinced wrote:
The bible teaches us that every life is planned by God and that we are all knitted together in our mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13)

It also tells us that babies are a gift/blessing from God.' (Psalm 127:3)

If the above verses are true then how is it that fertility drugs can possibly work?
I understand your thinking on this matter, but the problem is that bible followers will simply say that fertility drugs were part of god's plan from the beginning and it used them to accomplish it's plan. Any situation in which human activity overrides the "will of god" as explained in the bible can be explained away with such an argument. This argument isn't logically satisfying, but is impossible to argue against given this divine loophole.

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 66 times
Contact:

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #18

Post by OnceConvinced »

[Replying to post 17 by Tcg]

Hi TCG, of course you are right, however what I have learnt from fertility drugs is that:

1) God does not have a plan for all people. The fact is you plant baby seeds, you get babies. (I used to hate that saying as a Christian, but how true it is!)
2) There is no need for a god to start life off.
3) Prayer and magic doesn't work. If you want to give birth when you have fertility problems, you are most likely going to need performance enhancing drugs.
Last edited by OnceConvinced on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
OnceConvinced
Savant
Posts: 8969
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:22 pm
Location: New Zealand
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 66 times
Contact:

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #19

Post by OnceConvinced »

bluethread wrote:
OnceConvinced wrote:
bluethread wrote:
First, they don't always work.
That's beside the point. Drugs are not always 100% successful.
Then I might not understand your point, but maybe the rest of your point will clear this up.
Has anyone claimed that fertility drugs are going to be a hundred percent effective? Clearly they are not.
bluethread wrote:
bluethread wrote: That said, why do these poetic verses lead you to believe that fertility drugs should not work?
Taking a drug is working around God's natural system and gaining additional blessings that weren't originally intended for them.
According to whom? Last time I checked, humans and chemicals were part of the natural system.
Since when were fertility drugs part of the natural system?

bluethread wrote:
The reason I have not answered them is because they are all why questions that include presumptions that don't necessarily follow. Therefore, I will not tell you when I stopped beating my wife, until you show how it is you think I beat her in the first place. I see no contradiction between the passages you quoted and the use of fertility drugs.
Well you'll have to excuse me if I decline to give you a lesson about the birds and the bees. This is not the forum for that.

As for what a god would or wouldn't do, I am hoping you theists may be able to come up with some answers for that one. Of course if you have none, I can understand that.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: Why do fertility drugs work?

Post #20

Post by 1213 »

OnceConvinced wrote:I have never heard the word "coincidence" being used by evolutionists. That word comes with a lot of connotations. The word "coincidence" seems to imply that there is some kind of intended goal of evolution, which there is not.
Maybe random would be better word. By what I know, mutations happen in random way and there is no guided system that causes them, in scientific and atheistic point of view.
OnceConvinced wrote:Since when was any drug fool proof? Since when was a drug developed that worked in every possible scenario?
I don’t mean drug should work in every scenario. But for example, in chemistry, if something is scientific fact, it works every time same way, is same situation. The ability to repeat the thing, makes it scientific and fact. If something can’t be repeated, the reason why it earlier worked is probably something else. If the medicine doesn’t work always in similar situations, the reason why it “worked� earlier is probably something else than the medicine.

Post Reply