What is the definition of sin?

[Willum]

Another drive-by post for me, but in another OP everyone wanted to know my definition off sin:
My response was to use the Bible, I have no personal opinion.

But so many people wanted to know my opinion and to define it, I thought it would be worth creating the topic for them to discuss in.

So, here is a topic specifically about the definition of sin.
Please discuss.

[marco]

All humans have clearly seen the power and Deity of YHWH proven so that we have no excuse for disbelief nor disobedience

Yes Paul is not infallible. His Corinthian advice that women should shut up in churches is an example of nonsense. He declares that all people have seen the evidence of God. The intensely stupid among us would not be able to and rather clever people like Bertrand Russell are blind in that area. Looking at rainbows, mountain streams and snowflakes might inspire poetic thoughts: they do not offer conclusive evidence of Yahweh. Nothing does.

Indeed and to break the least of the commandments is the same as breaking them all

I don't know how one can extrapolate in such a fashion. Are we so informed by some archangel? It rather suggests that God legislates over a kingdom of utter stupidity, not unlike the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland. To blow one's nose is to blow up a city - quite!

[ttruscott]

" Sinners won't be allowed in the assembly of the righteous. "

And I guess they wouldn't want to be, since the assembly of the righteous sounds rather dry and dull.

Where did the rumour start that being righteous is boring? Who started it?

Is a round of golf more fun if someone cheats? Is chopping wood more fun if one worker bullies another worker? Is driving a convertible on a country road in the spring more enjoyable because we know the man who sold us the car gypped us?

But you are right in linking sinner with offence against God. Given that he takes offence at almost anything, we are indubitably all sinners, in his celestial eyes.

While the relationship is real, you seem to have it backward. Because we chose to be sinners we love to do sinful things so of course HE takes offense with all we do. HE has given us laws to convict us of being sinners since without that impetus we are quite happy being evil and unashamed by it.

The law does not MAKE us sinners but is only for the purpose of proving by our inability to keep the law that we are already sinners.

[ttruscott]

Yes but Paul has simplified the Law for us.

That was nice of him but rather presumptuous. Whose word carries more weight: God's or Paul's or are we supposing that on the road to Damascus God whispered to Paul that he could amend God's previous injunctions?

GOD used the force of LAW to prove that some sinners would not become righteous just because they knew HIS command nor because they feared the consequences of breaking the law. With Christ HE gave us the focus that the law is fulfilled best by love (since love does no evil) so now we have experienced the witness that love will not bring some sinners to righteous repentance. One of Paul's jobs was to make the transition from a focus upon law to love, (though they are in fact the same), at GOD's behest, not presumptively.

These experiences suggest that if they won't repent from force, the law, nor from being enticed by perfect love, then there is nothing left to bring them to righteousness, implying the necessity for their eternal banishment.

[marco]

Is a round of golf more fun if someone cheats? Is chopping wood more fun if one worker bullies another worker? Is driving a convertible on a country road in the spring more enjoyable because we know the man who sold us the car gypped us?

I didn't associate righteousness with rounds of golf, chopping wood or driving a car. However if by the Assembly of the Righteous you mean racing aces, lumberjacks and
Jack Nicklaus I've no objection to joining them. I feel my argument has been crucified.

HE has given us laws to convict us of being sinners

I suspected as much but didn't say so. I knew he must have had some ulterior motive. He set a cobra trap in Eden so one should have suspected his laws were similar snares. Did he do anything nice?

[ttruscott]

Indeed and to break the least of the commandments is the same as breaking them all

I don't know how one can extrapolate in such a fashion. Are we so informed by some archangel? It rather suggests that God legislates over a kingdom of utter stupidity, not unlike the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland. To blow one's nose is to blow up a city - quite!

Ahhh, the use of the hyperbolic sarcasm of reductio ad absurdum to shut me up!

But it is in the Bible where we find the claim, not from me: James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Maybe reading his whole argument will resolve this point for you... "11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,� also said, “You shall not murder.� If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

In my quote, the same as means has the same consequences...

[marco]

But it is in the Bible where we find the claim, not from me: James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Then this is an example of hyperbole, though perhaps not the sarcastic type. Obviously someone who transgresses in a minor way does not break the entire law. When Lady Macbeth says all the perfumes of Arabia cannot sweeten this little hand she is doing what James is doing. We must not deduce that Arabia's entire store of perfumes would be ineffective.

� If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.[/color]"

But not an adulterer. I can see no value in such statements. My previous arguments stand.

[ttruscott]

Is a round of golf more fun if someone cheats? Is chopping wood more fun if one worker bullies another worker? Is driving a convertible on a country road in the spring more enjoyable because we know the man who sold us the car gypped us?

I didn't associate righteousness with rounds of golf, chopping wood or driving a car. However if by the Assembly of the Righteous you mean racing aces, lumberjacks and Jack Nicklaus I've no objection to joining them. I feel my argument has been crucified.

Again the sarcasm to hide the paucity of your reply: the association of these activities with un-righteousness is found in the cheating, bullying and in gyping another, not the activities...

HE has given us laws to convict us of being sinners

I suspected as much but didn't say so. I knew he must have had some ulterior motive. He set a cobra trap in Eden so one should have suspected his laws were similar snares. Did he do anything nice?

What is termed the fall in the Garden should in fact be called The First Great Blessing in the World in that by means of HIS trapping the cobra HE freed Adam and Eve from their delusion they were righteous since they could not keep the most simple command, proving to them that their friend and mentor was in fact totally selfish and so twisted he would attack his friends to seduce them into evil, merely because they were there and he could do it.

HIS laws snare only the guilty; those who can repent find a reason to repent in their being unable to keep the law so they seek a saviour - is that a snaring? Snaring the sinful elect for Jesus and heaven? Amusing but with a grain of truth.

NICE?
HE exposed the serpent as a liar and a soul murderer.
HE brought A&E to repentance.
HE reminded them and us of Christ's redemption and His victory over the evil one.
HE promised that the serpent and his ssssslithery crew would be punished for our hope, our faith.

...a pretty good day's work, eh?

[Prince]

" Sinners won't be allowed in the assembly of the righteous. "

And I guess they wouldn't want to be, since the assembly of the righteous sounds rather dry and dull.

But you are right in linking sinner with offence against God. Given that he takes offence at almost anything, we are indubitably all sinners, in his celestial eyes.

Sins are forgiven once one serves God. That is why scripture says that the righteous serve God but sinners do not.

Serving God makes one righteous. It is not boring. There are other activities one can do.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 28 by Prince]

If God is omnipotent, then everyone serves him,it can be no other way.
Everyone must be righteous.

Time to get another religion.

[marco]

Sins are forgiven once one serves God. That is why scripture says that the righteous serve God but sinners do not.

Serving God makes one righteous. It is not boring. There are other activities one can do.

Going about our daily lives in an honourable fashion makes one righteous. Schindler was named Righteous Among the Nations, not for serving God, but for helping people in distress. Jesus said that giving a cup of water to the thirsty or clothing the needy is serving God; monks believed laborare est orare - work is prayer. I suspect that many righteous people never think of God for a moment; they are too busy with real life.

However, if serving God causes one to help others, there is nothing wrong with such service, though it's a round-about way of doing good.