For non trinitarian monotheists

[Wootah]

How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

Dont you think that unlikely?

Any doubts?

[liamconnor]

How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

Dont you think that unlikely?

Any doubts?

I am not a non-trinitarian monotheist, but a trinitarian monotheist.

I would also suggest this question be moved to "Theology"; for this question excludes atheists and agnostics and will therefore attract irrelevant comments (not that it will do so over there, but, at least you will have tried).

As to the question: Why should a....I will call it "flatly monotheistic"....god not be able to enter into space time as incarnate? As many monotheists think God outside of time and space, there would be no contradiction here. I for one will always admit that the Islamic God is philosophically speaking, far simpler. Philosophically speaking, I see no rational for arguing that an Incarnation requires any kind of multi-dimensionality within absolute being.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

And who sent the "perfect man"? Is this not like a drowning man saying I always thought a lifeguard would save me but finally it was a boat. or man in a burning house saying "I saw so many example of firemen saving people but finally I was saved by a water and a hose" God, in providing the means of salvation is the source of salvation.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know what my classification of theist that would make me (I know I'm not a trinitarian).

[Mithrae]

How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

Dont you think that unlikely?

Considering the start and finish of that particular 'bible' canon was decided upon by people who considered Jesus to be God, any argument from that basis is pretty much circular.

[FWI]

[Replying to Wootah]

How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

The first thing we should consider is: Saved from what? The stories in the bible imply that God rescued the Israelites and certain other men from physical instances. Whereas, the general thought is that the perfect man (the Christ) saves humans from their sins.

However, it is written that: “he who sins shall die.� So, if we are rescued from our sins or the Christ pays the penalty for our sins, then: Why do we die? So, the general consensus of what the perfect man (the Christ) has done for mankind may not be correct.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

And who sent the "perfect man"? Is this not like a drowning man saying I always thought a lifeguard would save me but finally it was a boat. or man in a burning house saying "I saw so many example of firemen saving people but finally I was saved by a water and a hose" God, in providing the means of salvation is the source of salvation.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know what my classification of theist that would make me (I know I'm not a trinitarian).

I agree the point cannot be who sent Jesus, but His nature. I think you believe we all inherit Adam's sinful nature except Jesus who was supposedly kept free from inheriting Adam's nature perhaps by miraculous conceptions.

I suggest that if such a freedom from evil can be so willy nilly applied to a created person then there is no reason for it not being applied to all since YHWH's loving kindness presupposes HE does all HE can to mitigate HIS creations suffering, taking no pleasure in their death.

Jesus was either a special human or especially gifted by GOD. IF His nature was special, more than human, then how GOD treats others has no meaning to the context f ordinary humans. IF GOD gifted Him with special attributes, the attribute of sinlessness for instance, then we must ask 'why Him and no one else?'

[ttruscott]

[Replying to Wootah]

How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

The first thing we should consider is: Saved from what? The stories in the bible imply that God rescued the Israelites and certain other men from physical instances. Whereas, the general thought is that the perfect man (the Christ) saves humans from their sins.

However, it is written that: “he who sins shall die.� So, if we are rescued from our sins or the Christ pays the penalty for our sins, then: Why do we die? So, the general consensus of what the perfect man (the Christ) has done for mankind may not be correct.

His death freed those under HIS promise of election by salvation from any and all sin, from both the natural consequence of our having the enslaving sinful nature we can't escape from by ourselves and from the legal consequences of our being guilty of great evil.

While this does NOT (obviously) cover the death of our human body, it does cover the second death of the banishment of our spirits to the outer darkness for eternity. Bodily death is a physical metaphor for the death in hell, a reminder of how close the sinful elect came to perdition, a reminder to the demonic non-elect of their coming fate.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

And who sent the "perfect man"? Is this not like a drowning man saying I always thought a lifeguard would save me but finally it was a boat. or man in a burning house saying "I saw so many example of firemen saving people but finally I was saved by a water and a hose" God, in providing the means of salvation is the source of salvation.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know what my classification of theist that would make me (I know I'm not a trinitarian).

Yes but we dont write a whole book about the life boat do we?

In every case if we worship the way God rescues his people its idol worship and yet im sure you have an exception in mind for Jesus.

The whole bible is full of men wanting to be God and at the final step you are worshipping a man as God. Its as if a mistake was made at the final step of analysis.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes but we dont write a whole book about the life boat do we?

The book isn't about "the boat" it's about "The lifeguard". The name of God JEHOVAH (YHWH) appears more than any other name (including that of Jesus). The only difference is that the bible is a "guidebook" for salvation, it would therefore be essential to recognize God's means for salvation which reflects as much about its author as itself. Thus everything in the bible relates to Jesus but all this reflects the beautiful qualities, ingenuity, mercy and love of the one that provided said means of salvation.

In every case if we worship the way God rescues his people its idol worship and yet im sure you have an exception in mind for Jesus.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnessses , I don't worship Jesus I worship JEHOVAH and there is no account of Jesus requesting worship from anyone. Indeed, Jesus said to worship Jehovah (YHWH) alone.

The whole bible is full of men wanting to be God and at the final step you are worshipping a man as God. Its as if a mistake was made at the final step of analysis.

See above.




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Do Jehovah's Witnesses WORSHIP Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 373#842373

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

And who sent the "perfect man"? Is this not like a drowning man saying I always thought a lifeguard would save me but finally it was a boat. or man in a burning house saying "I saw so many example of firemen saving people but finally I was saved by a water and a hose" God, in providing the means of salvation is the source of salvation.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know what my classification of theist that would make me (I know I'm not a trinitarian).

I agree the point cannot be who sent Jesus, but His nature. I think you believe we all inherit Adam's sinful nature except Jesus who was supposedly kept free from inheriting Adam's nature perhaps by miraculous conceptions.

emphasis MINE


Yet that is exactly what the bible says (I'm not sure why you pluralized conception). Unless one rejects the explicit statements in scripture on this matter (which I suspect you do) then we have no choice but to seek to understand the legistics of this measure rather than reject it in favor of our personal gospel. One is free thereafter to judge the measures God has taken as unjust if one so wishes but the bible is quite clear as to what those measures were.


JW








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