If your opinion trumps the Bible, how can it be debated?

[Willum]

So very many debates on this forum are completely muddied by one person arguing the Bible, and the other arguing opinion or belief.
The ironic bit, is it usually the non-Judeo-Christian arguing the Bible and the religious arguing the opinion.

How does this happen? Well the non-religious can only go by what the Bible says, the religious have a hodge-podge of of interpretations and opinions that make some portion of the Bible viable over the bits they don't.

This brings up a couple of questions:
1. I don't like lots of laws of physics, for example, but I don't go around pretending vehemently that there is a switch somewhere where I can go turn it off, nor should a Jew or Christian simply be able to ignore what the unpleasant parts of their religion, based on opinion.
Am I wrong?

2. If ones own opinion about religion trumps what is written in a book you believe is the truth, then you don't believe it is true.
Am I wrong?

3. How can other debaters be expected to debate the religious persons' personal opinion about the Bible, vs what the Bible says?

[JehovahsWitness]

Hi JW.
Let us be clear, with thousands of doctrinally disagreeing bible based religious organizations, how do you find one which is not an opinion?

Are you really asking this question, do you really want to know? Or have you already decided that such a thing is impossible?

One cannot find the truth unless one believes truth exists (and can be found)

ACTS 15:14
Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles.

DANIEL 12:4
As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.

JOHN 8:32

you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

FURTHER READING Would You Like to Know the Truth?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... the-truth/

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]Hi JW:
I agree that an omnipotent God can do anything. I know that He created everything. What I don't know is that He has ever done anything other than create everything. When God finished creation, He declared it to be very good, and He sat down to rest:-) I presume He is still resting.
Prehistoric earth was full of pagan priests who made a living off the gullible, by saying they spoke for a god who would punish them if they did not do what the priest said.
Then the God of Abraham showed up like the Cavalry in an old western, put an end to fear of gods, priests, and religion, by making an everlasting, unconditional, gospel promise that a great nation of believers, is going to inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and bless all the families of all the nations on the earth, with everlasting peace on earth.
The only thing the God of Abraham wanted, was for man to know that men are going to establish everlasting peace on earth, and there is nothing to fear from gods, priests, or religion, and in faith they can look forward to gospel fulfillment.
What God told Abraham was not religious because it was an end to religion for all who believed God. It was a faith. A statement of political good news for mankind, from God, who could make that statement because He is omniscient. IOW, God's only interest in man is that man should not fear gods, religion, and priests. Those who believe God's promise, are assured that eventually man will establish everlasting world peace. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
I know you don't believe it, but can you see why I do?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]Hi JW:
I agree that an omnipotent God can do anything.

Don't you mean "anything" ... EXCEPT effectively communicate his standards for unified worship by means of the written word?

What in your opinion are the scriptures I listed trying to communicate?

[JehovahsWitness]

I know that He created everything. What I don't know is that He has ever done anything other than create everything. When God finished creation, He declared it to be very good, and He sat down to rest:-) I presume He is still resting.

JOHN 5:17
"So he told them, "My Father is working until now, and I too am working." - Net Bible

Is it possible that your knowledge of the bible is not as complete as you might believe? Could studying the bible possibly enlighten you as to what God expects of people today?

[JehovahsWitness]

... eventually man will establish everlasting world peace.

Are you absolutely certain that the bible says that man (humans) will do this? Do you have some scriptures upon which you base this belief.



DOES THE BIBLE SAY HUMANS (MAN) WILL ESTABLISH EVERLASTING WORLD PEACE?

DANIEL 2:44
In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.

MATTHEW 6:9, 10
Our Father in the heavens [...] Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.

REVELATION 11:15
The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.�

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

1. I don't like lots of laws of physics, for example, but I don't go around pretending vehemently that there is a switch somewhere where I can go turn it off, nor should a Jew or Christian simply be able to ignore what the unpleasant parts of their religion, based on opinion.
Am I wrong?

2. If ones own opinion about religion trumps what is written in a book you believe is the truth, then you don't believe it is true.
Am I wrong?

3. How can other debaters be expected to debate the religious persons' personal opinion about the Bible, vs what the Bible says?

Religion is funny that way - it's the only thing (that I know of anyway) that proves itself and when it contradicts itself, its followers either ignore it, change the meaning (or sometimes the words themselves) of their text and/or come up with reasoning to ignore it or why it doesn't apply.

There's no real debating true believers. They believe in their way or the highway and are typically so steadfast in blind faith there's no swaying them.
If the bible said air is water and water is okapi poop they will believe it and argue it until their death.

Religion is truly the best scam in human history as well as the original business.

But if it works for the individual and they don't interfere with others I'm happy for them. Just 'do it over there'.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]Hi JW:
I agree that an omnipotent God can do anything. I know that He created everything. What I don't know is that He has ever done anything other than create everything. When God finished creation, He declared it to be very good, and He sat down to rest I presume He is still resting.

Then you must not believe as most of Christendom still does that HE is still creating fresh new people with every conception (traducianism) or birth (creationism of the soul)... because that would imply that HE is not resting at all but still creating.

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]OK JW:
Tell me how you tell if one's belief is an opinion or not.

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]Hi Ted:
It is my opinion that God has not done any creating since He finished creation. It is also my opinion that God does not desire, expect, or demand anything of any part of His creation. God demanding things of His creation is the standard pagan lie by which pagan priesthoods have always made their living. When God made His everlasting, unconditional, gospel promise to Abraham, it was a promise from foreknowledge. God is omniscient and He saw the end from the beginning. Also God gave the credit for the fulfillment of His gospel promise, to a great nation of Abraham's children(anyone who has the faith of Abraham). God's promise to Abraham(the faith of Abraham), never had a priesthood, no religious practices, no laws, and no sin. IOW, the faith of Abraham was anti-religion. It was the end of religion for all who believed God's everlasting gospel promise.
The laws which are credited to God, were laws to help the nation of Israel fulfill it's covenant to become the great and everlasting nation of His gospel promise. When the nation ceased to exist, everything national ceased to exist, which means that the laws which God supposedly gave to the nation, also ceased to exist. It is exactly the same after the existence of national Israel, as it was before national Israel. God gave no laws and so no sins are charged.
Stop me if you've heard this. How? LOL

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 26 by imhereforyou]Hi ihfy:
You said; Religion is truly the best scam in human history as well as the original business.
I agree with that completely!!! However the faith of Abraham was not religion, but simply faith that a great everlasting nation/kingdom is going to establish everlasting peace on earth. It will not be exclusive, and all the families of all the nations on the earth, will be blessed by that unconditional, everlasting peace on earth. That is why it is called the gospel(good news). Anyone who believed the gospel of the God of Abraham, no longer worried about the demands of religion because the faith of Abraham was not a religion. It was simply faith in God's everlasting, unconditional, good news promise.
The faith of Abraham was just too good to be true I guess, because when the children of Israel were freed from 400 years in pagan Israel, they promised to become the great everlasting nation of God's promise, but they could not maintain faith in the God of Abraham. When Moses died, the Israelites returned to paganism and turned the Levite civil service into a religious priesthood.
In the first century, Jesus preached God's gospel to backslidden Jews in an effort to bring the back to the faith, but he was killed in order to stop him.
Jesus' followers were forced to go underground, but they still watched for an anointed leader they could follow to the resurrection of David's kingdom.
The land on which the kingdom of Israel is to be resurrected, happened to be in the possession of Rome, so the gospel was a threat to the national security of the Roman Empire.
In the fourth century, Constantine put an end to the threat by taking control of the apostolic assembly and ecumenically uniting it with the pagan religions of the empire. God's everlasting gospel promise was removed from apostolic doctrine and the rest is church history.
No post-Nicaean Christian church preaches the free-for-all good news of God, Abraham, Jesus, and Paul.