To an omnipotent mind...

[Willum]

I am going to take a strong position:

If something is omnipotent, then the universe consists of that creature's beliefs and opinions about the universe.

Is there any possible way to suggest this position is wrong?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 17 by Willum]

An omnipotent being that is not omniscient could believe something wrong about reality. Therefore, an omnipotent being believing something to be true does not make it true.

If an omnipotent being believed something wrong about reality, it would be reality that got it wrong.

Frail reality would change to align itself to the being's all-powerful thoughts, not the other way around.

Omnipotence is omniscience, by fort main.

[The Tanager]

Frail reality would change to align itself to the being's all-powerful thoughts, not the other way around.

Omnipotence is omniscience, by fort main.

How would you define omnipotence? I've caught what you've said you think follows from omnipotence, but if you gave a definition, I missed it.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 22 by The Tanager]

I would conservatively define it as the capability of doing anything in the universe with small effort, creating it, in six days, requiring a day of rest. Able to effect change also with little effort, such as by thought.

But I am open to suggestion and correction.

Respectfully yours,

[The Tanager]

I would conservatively define it as the capability of doing anything in the universe with small effort, creating it, in six days, requiring a day of rest. Able to effect change also with little effort, such as by thought.

But I am open to suggestion and correction.

Respectfully yours,

Using this as a definition, then why do you think an omnipotent being must be omniscient? I don't see anything in this definition that necessitates omniscience.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 24 by The Tanager]

Well, if it created the universe, it must know how it works, right?
If it wants something to be different, it will be different, right?

If it wants to affect anything at all in the universe, which it must be capable of doing, then it must know about that anything to be able to do it.

In order to be omnipotent, it must know to be able to do it.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 25 by Willum]

Well, if it created the universe, it must know how it works, right?

I'm not sure. Is it possible that the omnipotent being could create another being that then does something different than it ever envisioned? For instance, say the storyline of something like Battlestar Galactica were true. Let's say there is this omnipotent being that created humans. Humans then create robots. Robots then create products of their own. I'm not sure that the first Creator having the property of omnipotence would necessarily know everything about every level of creation.

If it wants something to be different, it will be different, right?

Yes, I think so.

If it wants to affect anything at all in the universe, which it must be capable of doing, then it must know about that anything to be able to do it.

We can affect things without knowing everything there is to know about what we are affecting.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 26 by The Tanager]

So, what are you proposing then?
You haven't exactly made effective counter-arguments, though your BSG premise has merit, it doesn't work very well on the scale of omnipotence.

Because, for example, the all-mighty Sara could build machines that were constrained to improve on her capabilities somehow, then, without missing a beat, assimilate that character, this can be done at whim also.

[The Tanager]

So, what are you proposing then?
You haven't exactly made effective counter-arguments, though your BSG premise has merit, it doesn't work very well on the scale of omnipotence.

Because, for example, the all-mighty Sara could build machines that were constrained to improve on her capabilities somehow, then, without missing a beat, assimilate that character, this can be done at whim also.

You have said that an omnipotent being must be omniscient, right? My counter argument is that this is not necessarily the case. To back up that claim all I need is it to be logically possible for a being to be omnipotent without being omniscient.

Let's say two eternal beings exist: Quinn and Rachel. Quinn created the world, but isn't omnipotent. Rachel is omnipotent but didn't create this world. Rachel believes the moon is made out of green cheese. But the moon is not made out of green cheese. The universe right at that moment does not consist of omnipotent Rachel's beliefs about the universe.

I think the conclusion you've been arguing for needs a being that is both omnipotent and omniscient.

[wiploc]

If an omnipotent being believed something wrong about reality, it would be reality that got it wrong.

Frail reality would change to align itself to the being's all-powerful thoughts, not the other way around.

As near as we can tell, you just made that up. You haven't given any support for your claim.

If it wants something to be different, it will be different, right?

Sure, but you've given no reason to think that it wants all its misapprehensions to become true.

If it wants to affect anything at all in the universe, which it must be capable of doing, then it must know about that anything to be able to do it.

Omnipotent things are able to be omniscient, but that doesn't mean they automatically choose to be omniscient.

And if they are omniscient, then they never make a mistake, they never are wrong about anything, and your whole question becomes moot. The universe never has a chance to tailor itself to the god's misunderstanding.

[William]

I am going to take a strong position:

If something is omnipotent, then the universe consists of that creature's beliefs and opinions about the universe.

Is there any possible way to suggest this position is wrong?

I have read the thread comments.

I cannot see a connection with your reasoning that something all knowing would create a universe which consists of the creators 'beliefs and opinions.'

Beliefs and opinions are more to do with knowledge while being 'all powerful' in relation to creativity (creating this universe) doesn't necessitate having to include beliefs and opinions.

It may simply be created on whim. or for that matter created with purposeful intent based upon something more solid that simply belief or opinion.

Then I do see you elaborate with the 'turning the moon into green cheese' example and understand that what you appear to be saying is that if an all powerful GOD wanted to be seen by those within the universe as being real, then turning the moon into green cheese would go a long way in convincing you that this is the case.

Would that be a fair observation on my part?

The way I see it, the type of GOD you are presenting is problematic. In the case of turning the moon into green cheese, this might require a whole new universe, because the instability of the moon transforming into green cheese would most likely immediately create.

It would be far more likely and prudent that such an all powerful GOD would simly create a separate universe altogether.

Indeed, any such whim formed through belief and opinion etc which the GOD could come up with, could be used to design and create separate universes, thus allowing for stability to remain within universes already created, for whatever reason and purpose they were created.

Thus, yes - it can be done, but no, it is unnecessary and imprudent to muck with already established universes when one can simply create a new universe for every conceivable whimsical or purposefully serious notion the GOD has, as the case may be.