I am going to take a strong position:
If something is omnipotent, then the universe consists of that creature's beliefs and opinions about the universe.
Is there any possible way to suggest this position is wrong?
To an omnipotent mind...
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #2Sure. I mean, it looks wrong, right? Is there any way to think it is right? It seems like an arbitrary, implausible, and unsupported assertion.Willum wrote: I am going to take a strong position:
If something is omnipotent, then the universe consists of that creature's beliefs and opinions about the universe.
Is there any possible way to suggest this position is wrong?
Let's have an example: Suppose the universe consisted of Jehovah only, and then Jehovah--who is omnipotent--starts to think and have opinions. According to your assertion, once the thoughts and opinions happen, Jehovah has to go away. He has to quit existing because the entire universe consists of thoughts and opinions.
I can't imagine any way to even try to support that claim.
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by wiploc]
I am afraid I can't imagine how you got what you said out of the OP:
Because that isn't anywhere near the premise.
The premise is that if God has an opinion or belief about something, then it becomes true...
For example should he suddenly believe the Moon were made of green cheese, then just as suddenly, the Moon would be made of green cheese.
No where would his beliefs stop him from existing, that is an arbitrary, implausible, and unsupported assertion.
I am afraid I can't imagine how you got what you said out of the OP:
Because that isn't anywhere near the premise.
The premise is that if God has an opinion or belief about something, then it becomes true...
For example should he suddenly believe the Moon were made of green cheese, then just as suddenly, the Moon would be made of green cheese.
No where would his beliefs stop him from existing, that is an arbitrary, implausible, and unsupported assertion.
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by Willum]
So, if at time T=1, you say the Moon is made out of various elements, then God's belief at T=1 is that it is made out of various elements. Your premise, as worded, could lead to someone thinking you mean that at T=2 God changes his mind and believes the Moon is made out of green cheese. And then at T=3 the Moon is now made out of green cheese. And if that were true, then at T=2, God's belief about what the Moon was made up of would be incorrect.
I think you are right, given your example. How you worded your premise, however, could cause some confusion. In the wording of your premise it sounds as if God's belief comes prior to the state of affairs being actualized. In the example, however, you seem to be saying that this is simultaneous.Willum wrote:The premise is that if God has an opinion or belief about something, then it becomes true...
For example should he suddenly believe the Moon were made of green cheese, then just as suddenly, the Moon would be made of green cheese.
So, if at time T=1, you say the Moon is made out of various elements, then God's belief at T=1 is that it is made out of various elements. Your premise, as worded, could lead to someone thinking you mean that at T=2 God changes his mind and believes the Moon is made out of green cheese. And then at T=3 the Moon is now made out of green cheese. And if that were true, then at T=2, God's belief about what the Moon was made up of would be incorrect.
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by The Tanager]
I don't understand that:
For simplicity, if an omnipotent creature were to change his belief, even his opinion about something, whatever it was would immediately change to reflect the new opinion/belief.
In short, the beliefs, whims, opinions, even the very thoughts of an omnipotent creature would change reality as we know it.
Is there any other way?
I don't understand that:
For simplicity, if an omnipotent creature were to change his belief, even his opinion about something, whatever it was would immediately change to reflect the new opinion/belief.
In short, the beliefs, whims, opinions, even the very thoughts of an omnipotent creature would change reality as we know it.
Is there any other way?
Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #6You said, "If something is omnipotent, then the universe consists of that creature's beliefs and opinions about the universe."Willum wrote: [Replying to post 2 by wiploc]
I am afraid I can't imagine how you got what you said out of the OP:
Because that isn't anywhere near the premise.
Maybe you meant that the universe includes his thoughts and opinions? If it consists of his thoughts and opinions, then there is nothing else. If there is nothing but thoughts and opinions, then there is no god.
Unless you also want to say that god consists of thoughts and opinions. God consists of his own thoughts and opinions?
That's an interesting idea. Do you want to abandon your original idea and talk about this instead?The premise is that if God has an opinion or belief about something, then it becomes true...
Omnipotence means he can make the moon be green cheese. It doesn't mean he has to.For example should he suddenly believe the Moon were made of green cheese, then just as suddenly, the Moon would be made of green cheese.
It's not my assertion. It is the obvious result of your assertion.No where would his beliefs stop him from existing, that is an arbitrary, implausible, and unsupported assertion.
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #7[Replying to post 6 by wiploc]
Ah, here's maybe a way of bridging the gap; an omnipotent creatures thoughts and opinions define reality, they are stronger than matter and materials.
Does that shore it up for you? My English was pretty directive, even doing the grammar analysis the "omnipotent creature" is clearly the active, not passive.
I am not going to spend the next thirty pages discussing grammar or what you think I said, it covered, speak or move on, thanks.
Ah, here's maybe a way of bridging the gap; an omnipotent creatures thoughts and opinions define reality, they are stronger than matter and materials.
Does that shore it up for you? My English was pretty directive, even doing the grammar analysis the "omnipotent creature" is clearly the active, not passive.
I am not going to spend the next thirty pages discussing grammar or what you think I said, it covered, speak or move on, thanks.
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #8[Replying to post 5 by Willum]
Is the being also omniscient? If not, it can have a wrong belief. There is the further question of whether it will then change reality to fit its belief, but just thinking it doesn't necessarily change reality.Willum wrote:I don't understand that:
For simplicity, if an omnipotent creature were to change his belief, even his opinion about something, whatever it was would immediately change to reflect the new opinion/belief.
In short, the beliefs, whims, opinions, even the very thoughts of an omnipotent creature would change reality as we know it.
Is there any other way?
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #9Of course, the Christian possibility:Willum wrote: I am going to take a strong position:
If something is omnipotent, then the universe consists of that creature's beliefs and opinions about the universe.
Is there any possible way to suggest this position is wrong?
Combined with a belief in the omnipotent Person's righteousness and the experiential presence of evil, then this cannot be correct as such a Person would never have created evil so a created person had to have created evil. Therefore this created person had to have been acting outside of the omnipotent Person's beliefs and opinions about the universe.
Omnipotence refers to the ability to do anything which requires power implying the use of this power is directed by thought and intent, not like gravity which (in our experience) just is and works on everything.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: To an omnipotent mind...
Post #10[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]
I am afraid I don't see/understand this.
If something omnipotent believed gravity was inconstant, wouldn't it be inconstant?
I am afraid I don't see/understand this.
If something omnipotent believed gravity was inconstant, wouldn't it be inconstant?