Jesus said to be no part of the world...

SaulToPaul · Post by **SaulToPaul** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:21 pm

If you live by the Bible, then it's clear that politics and Christianity should NEVER mix. In fact, Jehovah's Witnesses believe exactly what the Word says. Though we must adhere to the laws of human rule (Romans 13:1), we should never vote for anything that is human created.

If it's not clear, Ecclesiastes 8:9 says that "man has dominated man to his harm". Why then, would we cast votes for a man? There is only one ruler that we should willingly slave for, and that is Jehovah God.

It is best to avoid politics altogether.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:44 am

SaulToPaul wrote: it's clear that politics and Christianity should NEVER mix.

SaulToPaul wrote:It is best to avoid politics altogether.

I couldn't disagree more. Politics is the way, for better or worse, we organise our societies. And Christians should be very much involved in making sure that that organisation is for the better, and not for the worse.

Best wishes, 2RM.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:50 am

SaulToPaul wrote:
'Jesus said to be no part of the world...'

Ummm. Excuse my ignorance, but where, exactly?

Best wishes, 2RM.

SaulToPaul · Post by **SaulToPaul** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:50 am

[Replying to post 3 by 2ndRateMind]

John 18:36. You must realize that Jehovah is the ruler of this planet. All governments are in their place (temporarily due to sovereignty vindication), because without some sort of established order, there can not even be the smallest amount of natural order. Consider pre-Deluge (flood) times if you think disorder can work. Jehovah is a God of peace, not disorder (1 Corinthians 14:33)

Also, Jehovah made the world one nation at the beginning, establishing the Garden of Eden as its capital. All of the lines drawn on the global map have been drawn by man. Not Jehovah. Did you know, that nationalism is a religion in itself? Flag veneration? Have you happened to read the entire 2nd Commandment? Exodus 20:4,5 says "You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like ANYTHING that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion..." when you "pledge allegiance to the flag", you are putting country first, not Jehovah.

Do you know what else is an image? The cross. Jesus didn't even die on a cross. He died on a stake. A torture stake. If a stake wasn't available, a tree would be used. There is not a tree in the region of Jerusalem that would allow for a man to have his arms spread wide. Crucifixion takes place with hands above the head, stakes through the wrist. This is where the word "excruciating" comes from. The "cross" was an object of veneration for the pagans, and in (around) 400 C.E., emperor Constantine, whose mother loved Christianity, decided to give her a birthday present. That present was a massive influx of new Christians due to a statement along these lines; "Hey Pagans! New information has just come to my attention! Apparently this Jesus character died on a cross, not a stake!" With this statement being broadcast across the (then) globe, this gave pagans the opportunity to join the ranks of Christendom (false Christianity), thus 1.5 million (or so) new Christians were born overnight. What a birthday gift.

As you can see, man has done nothing but harm. To put your trust in anything man made is ludicrous. And the United Nations? Not one of its representatives even gives credit to the true God, Jehovah of Armies.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:45 am

SaulToPaul wrote: [Replying to post 3 by 2ndRateMind]

John 18:36. You must realize that Jehovah is the ruler of this planet.

Yes, I thought that might be the passage you had in mind. But I am not sure your interpretation of it is correct. Let us see it, in context*:

Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him: Art thou the King of the Jews?

And Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find no fault in him, at all.

Seems to me that nowhere in this passage does Jesus say His people should separate themselves from the world, and not be politically active. The most we can construe of it is that He considered that He owed a prior loyalty to truth than to political power.

And I think most Christians would consider likewise, in respect of their own loyalties.

Specifically, Jesus seems to be saying that as He stands before Pilate (now) His kingdom is not derived from earthly power (His servants will not fight), and thus (hence) He is no direct threat to Pilate. 'But now is my kingdom not from hence'.

As a British subject, my earthly loyalty is to Her Royal Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, and her heirs and successors. But my heavenly loyalty is to truth, righteousness, goodness, justice, decency, kindness, etc. And should these loyalties ever conflict, then my heavenly loyalty takes precedence. And I think that is what Jesus was getting at, and why His kingdom is eternal, while mere earthly powers will all eventually subside.

So, you are quite correct that 'My country, right or wrong!', will not do. But if our purpose is to make our country right, then I think Jesus would happily endorse our political engagement. And it is not that it is 'my' country that will sustain it, and justify our politicking, but that we are engaged in making it His.

Best wishes, 2RM

*John 18: 33-38 KJV

SaulToPaul · Post by **SaulToPaul** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:01 pm

[Replying to post 5 by 2ndRateMind]

We must be in subjection to the superior authorities, but that does not mean that we are to help them in any way to dominate man. We must abide by the laws, but, as you stated, if anything were to go against God, we would take his side first.

And 2 Corinthians 6:17 states clearly ; '"Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,' says Jehovah, 'and quit touching the unclean thing'"; '"and I will take you in.'".

So, we have been commanded to separate ourselves. Not by Jesus, but by Jehovah himself. I choose to listen to these commandments, because I have read about what has happened to those that did not listen. I choose life, the narrow road, which few are finding. 4 billion "Christians" are not "few", so obviously the relatively small group of Witness's (about 9 million) constitutes a "few". Thoughts?

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:16 am

[Replying to post 6 by SaulToPaul]

I think Paul is simply saying that the Corinthians should not allow their faith to be polluted by the attitudes, practices and way of life of the pagans. But I also think one can, and should, accomplish this while still engaging fully in public life. Else our faith is, in an important sense, barren.

Let your little light shine!

Best wishes, 2RM.

SaulToPaul · Post by **SaulToPaul** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:25 pm

[Replying to post 7 by 2ndRateMind]

First, Paul was not SAYING anything. Paul was QUOTING Jehovah God. And before Paul was ever, read these 3 references: Isa 52:11, Jer 51:45, Rev 18:4. Jehovah does not want you to partake in anything that the world has to offer. This is Satan's planet. What would make anyone think that Jehovah would want you to soil oneself by partaking in the practices of the nations, no matter how useful the nations practices may seem?

The real problem is the words "I think" that you use. The Bible is not to be taken how you want it to fit your life. The word "think" implies that philosophy is at work in your mind, instead of faith in the inspired word. Remember that there is no partiality with Jehovah. By your thinking something other than what is specifically spoken about in scripture, you are doing exactly what Adam and Eve did, which is try and do things how you believe they should be done, and look where we are for that.

Appreciate what the word says and don't go beyond what is written, as 1 Corinthian 4:6b says.

Finally, Romans 8:6-8 states "For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; Â because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. Â So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God." The flesh is all things you THINK. The Word is clear in all but Revelations. Everything else Jehovah has said, he means for us to do.

Also, read "Revelation: A Grand Climax Is At Hand" for a simply amazing breakdown of what Revelation really means. Knowledge is power, so learn.

Be safe and believe the Word for what it truly is. The Truth.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:27 am

[Replying to post 8 by SaulToPaul]

I think we are just going to have to agree to differ.

Best wishes, 2RM.

SaulToPaul · Post by **SaulToPaul** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:54 pm

[Replying to post 9 by 2ndRateMind]

No sir, this is a debate. I have given you scripture, whereas you have given opinion. I will not agree to disagree. I stand behind THE BIBLE and you don't, yet you claim Christianity. You are not a Christian unfortunately. The word Christian means "Christ-Like", not "somewhat Christ-Like" or "almost Christ-Like". Being Christ-Like means adoring the Word (also known as Jesus) and fully trusting and abiding by every single thing that it (he) says. What you are sir, is a part of what is known as Christendom. Google it. You believe what the world says and thinks, NOT what Jehovah has COMMANDED.

Thats the problem with the world, and why most of you will be destroyed shortly. It's sad.

If you have nothing else to say, then the Bible has won this debate.

Debating Christianity and Religion