Is "stay awake" meaningful advice?

[marco]

Mark 13:30-36 (NIV)

" 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[a]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. 35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping."

This was read to me yesterday.


A few questions.

Is it sensible to tell people not to be asleep when the master returns, especially since he might be back at 3am?

Given the situation of people having to stay awake till master gets home is it reasonable to suppose the waiting time might be 2 millennia? Does the "generation won't pass away" statement not continue the parallel of master and sleepless servants, so master is to be back within at most weeks?

Jesus had no idea when finality will come, which is a theological wonder if he's consubstantial. Given his ignorance, is he just speculating - wrongly as it happens - that the last day will be soon?

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

There is no doubt that Jesus' disciples thought that their master would return soon. The common meaning of "soon" is: "without undue time lapse," "before long," "in a prompt manner," "speedily." Two thousand years and counting meet none of those definitions.

Why would the son of god use such cryptic language to explain things? I propose that if he had made himself perfectly clear he would have been exposed immediately as the fraud and charlatan he was.

[marco]

I'm a little confused, you don't want to discuss what the metaphor means but whether it was "appropriate" for Jesus to use such a metaphor about sleep in the first place? ie was it inappropriate to speak about his disciples staying "awake" as opposed to say... eating a cheese sandwich or fabricating a fishing net?

I wasn't expecting you to out-Jesus Jesus in attempting to find a better tale on which to hang the metaphor. We know what the metaphor means: be on your guard, by doing whatever it takes.

The story that acts as the metaphor's correlative, involving a master going off somewhere and then coming back requires the servants to stay awake and not allow him to find them asleep when he gets home. The story, not the related metaphor, makes no sense. [/quote]

- What exactly renders it "inappropriate"? And why do you say so?

The mention of sleep, perhaps. I think the story Christ has chosen imperfectly illustrates the point he is trying to make. The master would not require the servants to be awake when he returns.

The other problem is the duration. He is speaking about servants who will wait in the house . Jesus appears to be talking to his listeners, who are saying goodbye to him in reality and must be ready for his return. If his return is many centuries away, then the story does not fit.

If Christ thinks he will be back soon, as it certainly seems, then the tale fits the lesson better.

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I'm looking at this through Zen eyes where Awake means awake as opposed to asleep to his message . He is saying stay awake, don't lose the vision . Christianity is based on the belief restoration in the Messianic age has begun he is saying don't lose the vision of the kingdom of God we shared. Stay awake don't go back to sleep.

I know this. The extracted meaning is easy enough to work out. The story he offers should actually work in practical terms. It doesn't. Stay awake, don't sleep, are literal in the story and metaphorical in the related lesson.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I don't quite understand the question; does it assume that Jesus, because he was not only man but God, he could not speak proverbially, metaphorically, or allegorically? I am not sure on what basis this assertion is being made. Suppose he once said, "Well the proof of the pudding is in the eating" while discoursing on an ethical topic. Would anyone here really feel terribly clever if they responded, "Oh, I see Jesus, so all ethics boil down to culinary skills"?

Good grief, if the argument is that Jesus had to be a literalist in his speech, please provide reasons for it.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 13 by marco]

Marco, are you saying that when something not meant to be taken literal is taken literally, this constitutes a flaw in the metaphor?

Perhaps a study in literary/rhetorical devices is necessary here.

At best, the argument can run: Jesus was not the greatest at forming parables according to the human criterion of x; God surely would agree with the human criterion of x; therefore, Jesus was not God.

I have never met anyone, except on this site, who did not get the 'gist' of the exhortation.

[marco]

Marco, are you saying that when something not meant to be taken literal is taken literally, this constitutes a flaw in the metaphor?

No.

Perhaps a study in literary/rhetorical devices is necessary here.

I am well acquainted with these and frequently employ them. But you will of course profit through study if that's what you want to do.

At best, the argument can run: Jesus was not the greatest at forming parables according to the human criterion of x; God surely would agree with the human criterion of x; therefore, Jesus was not God.

I have no idea what this syllogism is supposed to show.

I have never met anyone, except on this site, who did not get the 'gist' of the exhortation.

Nor I. You have completely misunderstood what I was saying.

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

There is no doubt that Jesus' disciples thought that their master would return soon. The common meaning of "soon" is: "without undue time lapse," "before long," "in a prompt manner," "speedily." Two thousand years and counting meet none of those definitions.

Why would the son of god use such cryptic language to explain things? I propose that if he had made himself perfectly clear he would have been exposed immediately as the fraud and charlatan he was.

There's a lot of truth in this. I think Jesus used stories rather than state specifically what he wanted people to conclude, for his own self-protection.

His odd question: Who do men say that I am? and his commendation of Peter when the apostle all but deified him suggest a certain astuteness rather than divinity.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Is "stay awake" meaningful advice?

It sure is if'n you gotta be you to work at 6 in the morning, and here it is, it's 5:38.

30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Not long as them Christian's'll keep a-spoutin' 'em anyway.

I challenge anyone to show their favorite god-spawn uttered him this phrase to begin with.

32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Only don't it beat all, so many Christians dare to declare that if we vote us in us one more folk that ain't him or her a Christian, well how 'bout that.

33 Be on guard! Be alert[a]! You do not know when that time will come.

I propose that time'll come right there when the Christians realize we ain't a-buyin' us into their bravo-sierra.

34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

When it is our phones keep such a watch, who cares if it's a door a-doin' it?

35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.

A cluckless God is as useless as a quackless duck.

36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping."

If you can't show you exist, when I throw me out the chicken feed, I ain't gonna put me no extra special effort into throwin' me none of it your way.

And I'll be ding-danged if it upsets any god that I had me a sleep, while it was he slept him through two world wars!

[liamconnor]

Mark 13:30-36 (NIV)

" 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[a]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. 35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping."

This was read to me yesterday.


A few questions.

Is it sensible to tell people not to be asleep when the master returns, especially since he might be back at 3am?

Given the situation of people having to stay awake till master gets home is it reasonable to suppose the waiting time might be 2 millennia? Does the "generation won't pass away" statement not continue the parallel of master and sleepless servants, so master is to be back within at most weeks?

Jesus had no idea when finality will come, which is a theological wonder if he's consubstantial. Given his ignorance, is he just speculating - wrongly as it happens - that the last day will be soon?

I still do not understand the question; but as the most ridiculous reading has been denied by the OP's author, I give one more attempt:

Given the situation of people having to stay awake till master gets home is it reasonable to suppose the waiting time might be 2 millennia?

I know of no one who has to live a life of alertness and expectation for 2 millennia; average life span is well below that.

I am a Christian; the quote continues to influence me: I take the exhortation to be: "Do not settle down into a life that forgets the metanarrative which you believe in." Given that the period in which the gospels were written, this must have been a widespread understanding of the exhortation.

As far as I am concerned, the question of the OP is answered: it is a subjective question (does it make sense).

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 18 by JoeyKnothead]

I truly do love your responses. Even if they are meaningless or irrelevant as legitimate responses to a question, still, there is a poetry and even musical tone to them all.