A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

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For_The_Kingdom
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Post by For_The_Kingdom »

benchwarmer wrote: Even if it were true (which I seriously doubt), how does this help your case in any way, shape or form?
It doesn't. It is just a fun fact.
benchwarmer wrote: The first sign of a lost debate is focusing on your debate opponent rather than on the points they make.
Dude, I was just pointing out an observation. Its not that serious.
benchwarmer wrote: If by some odd chance you are right, you should only have to do half the work, while your opponent(s) have to do twice the work. Should be easy for you to make your case no?
LOL. Man..I swear.
benchwarmer wrote: Why is it your job to save souls?
You see, there is this thing called "Christian Theology"... You ever heard of it? There is a "saving soul" element to it..ring a bell?
benchwarmer wrote: I thought God did that based on the actions of this Jesus character we are discussing the historicity of in this thread.
*sigh* which means nothing if you don't believe in him...*sigh*
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that God and Jesus can't save souls on their own?
Again..*sigh* which means nothing if you don't believe in him *sigh*. I am trying to get people to believe in him.
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if someone who feels it their job to save souls decides to be lazy one day they can foil the plans of God and not get all the souls saved that needed saving?

I would really like to see a scripture quote that backs up your necessity to be 'saving souls'. I thought Jesus did all the work.[/
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

And people wonder why I shake my head.

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Post by benchwarmer »

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Why is it your job to save souls?
You see, there is this thing called "Christian Theology"... You ever heard of it? There is a "saving soul" element to it..ring a bell?
No, it doesn't ring a bell. When I was a Christian I was encouraged to spread the 'good news' not attempt to save souls. God/Jesus do the saving, I was just supposed to make people aware of what Jesus was offering. I didn't 'save' anyone or cause anyone to be 'unsaved' by lack of effort on my part. Perhaps the distinction is lost on some.

Are you suggesting that if someone doesn't hear about Jesus they are automatically doomed to eternal damnation? Seems like a rather shoddy and severely hobbled system an all wise god would put in place.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: I thought God did that based on the actions of this Jesus character we are discussing the historicity of in this thread.
*sigh* which means nothing if you don't believe in him...*sigh*
Do you always get so exasperated while trying to save souls? Is the work too tiring or something?

Are you suggesting that it is your job to make people believe in Jesus? Again, shouldn't this be the job of the Holy Spirit? Your *sigh*/LOL/SMH tactics certainly don't work.

At the end of the day, it should be God moving in your life that makes you believe if God has any part of this equation. Not whether FtK convinced anyone of anything.

When I believed, I was at best the 'spark' that made known the existence of God. Believing/saving/etc, was the realm of God and the person involved. Apparently your beliefs have you taking a more active role.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that God and Jesus can't save souls on their own?
Again..*sigh* which means nothing if you don't believe in him *sigh*. I am trying to get people to believe in him.
Nice dodge. You didn't answer the question. Is God/Jesus powerless to make themselves known to people without active preaching by humans? It seems your answer to my question is "No, they can't do it".
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if someone who feels it their job to save souls decides to be lazy one day they can foil the plans of God and not get all the souls saved that needed saving?

I would really like to see a scripture quote that backs up your necessity to be 'saving souls'. I thought Jesus did all the work.[/
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

And people wonder why I shake my head.
Funny, I don't see the words 'save' or 'soul' in your scripture quote. Maybe it was blurry from all the head shaking and you posted the wrong one.

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Post by otseng »

For_The_Kingdom wrote: Readers, please decide for yourselves whether or not Clownboat and TiredoftheNonsense are the same poster. Look at my debate with TOTN on the resurrection, and also this short discussion on this thread.

I can make a case that they are the same person. I won't on this thread, though. PM me and I will make the case.
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For_The_Kingdom
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Post by For_The_Kingdom »

benchwarmer wrote: No, it doesn't ring a bell. When I was a Christian I was encouraged to spread the 'good news' not attempt to save souls.
The act of spreading the news is a simultaneous act of trying to get their souls saved.
benchwarmer wrote: God/Jesus do the saving, I was just supposed to make people aware of what Jesus was offering. I didn't 'save' anyone or cause anyone to be 'unsaved' by lack of effort on my part. Perhaps the distinction is lost on some.
Saving souls is a joint-team effort...and the team is the Trinity, and us (believers).
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if someone doesn't hear about Jesus they are automatically doomed to eternal damnation?
No, that is not what I am suggesting.
benchwarmer wrote: Do you always get so exasperated while trying to save souls? Is the work too tiring or something?

Apologetics
can be a disappointing job, at times.
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that it is your job to make people believe in Jesus?
My job is to lead people to Christ.
benchwarmer wrote: Again, shouldn't this be the job of the Holy Spirit? Your *sigh*/LOL/SMH tactics certainly don't work.
Joint team effort...The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, believers, followers, etc.
benchwarmer wrote: At the end of the day, it should be God moving in your life that makes you believe if God has any part of this equation. Not whether FtK convinced anyone of anything.
Jesus said "God and make disciples of all nations"..which would be hard to do if you aren't "convincing" anyone of anything.
benchwarmer wrote: When I believed, I was at best the 'spark' that made known the existence of God.
And a forest fire can spread mighty far from a tiny little "spark".
benchwarmer wrote: Believing/saving/etc, was the realm of God and the person involved. Apparently your beliefs have you taking a more active role.
Joint team effort.
benchwarmer wrote: Nice dodge. You didn't answer the question. Is God/Jesus powerless to make themselves known to people without active preaching by humans? It seems your answer to my question is "No, they can't do it".
"Go and make disciples of all nations"...that is what Jesus commanded.
benchwarmer wrote:
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if someone who feels it their job to save souls decides to be lazy one day they can foil the plans of God and not get all the souls saved that needed saving?

I would really like to see a scripture quote that backs up your necessity to be 'saving souls'. I thought Jesus did all the work.[/
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

And people wonder why I shake my head.
Funny, I don't see the words 'save' or 'soul' in your scripture quote. Maybe it was blurry from all the head shaking and you posted the wrong one.
Yeah, and what is even more funny is that you also don't see the words "save" or "soul" in Luke 23:39-43..

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was [a]hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!�

40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.�

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!�

43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.�


We don't see the words "soul" and "save" in this Scripture, but obviously, the thief's "soul" was "saved".

See, that is the kind of disingenuous stuff I am talking about. Some of you posters on here seem to lack basic reading comprehension skills.

I don't know, but it is sickening, and I am quite frankly tired of it. I am tired of explaining basic, simple, elementary logic to some of you.

I can already tell that my time on this great forum is growing shorter and shorter by the day.

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Post by benchwarmer »

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: No, it doesn't ring a bell. When I was a Christian I was encouraged to spread the 'good news' not attempt to save souls.
The act of spreading the news is a simultaneous act of trying to get their souls saved.
I'm sorry, but trying to get someone's soul saved (by making Jesus known) is not the same as saving their soul.

Buying flour for your mom so she can make bread does not mean you made any bread. Your mom did the actual work of making the bread. She could have gotten the flour herself if required.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: God/Jesus do the saving, I was just supposed to make people aware of what Jesus was offering. I didn't 'save' anyone or cause anyone to be 'unsaved' by lack of effort on my part. Perhaps the distinction is lost on some.
Saving souls is a joint-team effort...and the team is the Trinity, and us (believers).
Ok, opinion noted, but this is going to bite you in the next point.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if someone doesn't hear about Jesus they are automatically doomed to eternal damnation?
No, that is not what I am suggesting.
Sure it is, you just said it above. Team effort. If you (believers) don't participate, then it seems Jesus/God are out of luck and left hanging. Which is it?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Do you always get so exasperated while trying to save souls? Is the work too tiring or something?

Apologetics
can be a disappointing job, at times.
No doubt. I gave up trying to cobble together the Bible tales long ago into a coherent message. Seems odd that such godly work could ever be disappointing. Maybe you are doing it wrong?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that it is your job to make people believe in Jesus?
My job is to lead people to Christ.
So not to do the soul saving then. I'm confused, you keep switching answers. Before it was to save souls, now you are the 'introducer' to the soul saver.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Again, shouldn't this be the job of the Holy Spirit? Your *sigh*/LOL/SMH tactics certainly don't work.
Joint team effort...The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, believers, followers, etc.
But you already claimed no one but God/Jesus(/Holy Spirit) are required. Maybe you want to go back and change the answer to that one?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: At the end of the day, it should be God moving in your life that makes you believe if God has any part of this equation. Not whether FtK convinced anyone of anything.
Jesus said "God and make disciples of all nations"..which would be hard to do if you aren't "convincing" anyone of anything.
Sure, I get that. It would be hard to get people to believe in something only written about in an ancient religious text. Been there, got the t-shirt. Still nothing about soul saving here though. Are you suggesting that if you managed to successfully make someone a disciple, their soul is automatically saved? That's news to me. It seems whether a soul is saved rests in the final decision of God when you show up at the pearly gates - at least according to the tales.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: When I believed, I was at best the 'spark' that made known the existence of God.
And a forest fire can spread mighty far from a tiny little "spark".
And a single drop of water can prevent a forest fire. What's that got to do with soul saving?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Believing/saving/etc, was the realm of God and the person involved. Apparently your beliefs have you taking a more active role.
Joint team effort.
So believers are required then. God/Jesus/Holy spirit are powerless to save souls without believers.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Nice dodge. You didn't answer the question. Is God/Jesus powerless to make themselves known to people without active preaching by humans? It seems your answer to my question is "No, they can't do it".
"Go and make disciples of all nations"...that is what Jesus commanded.
And I note you still avoided the question. Why? Is it because you've created/noticed a contradiction? Surely God could do anything, yet now we have to maintain that believers are required or the whole thing goes up in smoke.

It's one or the other. Believers required or not? God able or not without believers? Seems like an uncomfortable corner you are backed into.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote:
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if someone who feels it their job to save souls decides to be lazy one day they can foil the plans of God and not get all the souls saved that needed saving?

I would really like to see a scripture quote that backs up your necessity to be 'saving souls'. I thought Jesus did all the work.[/
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

And people wonder why I shake my head.
Funny, I don't see the words 'save' or 'soul' in your scripture quote. Maybe it was blurry from all the head shaking and you posted the wrong one.
Yeah, and what is even more funny is that you also don't see the words "save" or "soul" in Luke 23:39-43..

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was [a]hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!�


Umm, I do see the word 'Save' there. Are you really not reading what you post? And why are you accusing me of not seeing something you haven't even posted yet?

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.�

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!�

43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.�


We don't see the words "soul" and "save" in this Scripture, but obviously, the thief's "soul" was "saved".

It's funny how things are 'obvious' to you in scripture that must be heavily interpreted, yet when you argue against science every scrap of evidence must land in your inbox to be convincing.

All that scripture says is that the particular thief in question is going to see Jesus later that day in Paradise. No mention is made of what happens after that meeting. Maybe the thief gets judged by God and thrown into the lake of fire. Maybe the thief gets to move in next to Jesus. Who knows? I can make things up just as easily as you. Thus, I ask for actual references, not your interpretations that are 'obvious' when clearly they are not.

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
See, that is the kind of disingenuous stuff I am talking about. Some of you posters on here seem to lack basic reading comprehension skills.

I don't know, but it is sickening, and I am quite frankly tired of it. I am tired of explaining basic, simple, elementary logic to some of you.

I can already tell that my time on this great forum is growing shorter and shorter by the day.

Well, if you can't stick to the topic at hand and feel the need to drag your debate opponents through the mud to try to make your points, you are probably right. I'll ignore the pointless insults and hope to read some more reasoned responses.

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Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 214 by For_The_Kingdom]
See, that is the kind of disingenuous stuff I am talking about. Some of you posters on here seem to lack basic reading comprehension skills.

I don't know, but it is sickening, and I am quite frankly tired of it. I am tired of explaining basic, simple, elementary logic to some of you.
This comment of yours borders on being offensive given the way you handled the discussion relating to evolution. Please refrain from passing judgement on others when you are at least equally, if not more culpable.

:study:

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Post by For_The_Kingdom »

benchwarmer wrote: I'm sorry, but trying to get someone's soul saved (by making Jesus known) is not the same as saving their soul.
Joint team effort. Jesus is hosting the party, and his believers/disciples are out handing out the party invitations.
benchwarmer wrote: Sure it is, you just said it above. Team effort. If you (believers) don't participate, then it seems Jesus/God are out of luck and left hanging. Which is it?
Jesus/God are out of luck and left hanging? No...those names that aren't found in the Lamb's book of life (Rev 20:15); they are the ones that will be out of luck and left hanging.

I don't know what you've been told, but we need Jesus/God...they don't need us.
benchwarmer wrote: No doubt. I gave up trying to cobble together the Bible tales long ago into a coherent message. Seems odd that such godly work could ever be disappointing. Maybe you are doing it wrong?
Jesus got disappointed at times, too. I guess he was doing it wrong, also. SMH.
benchwarmer wrote: So not to do the soul saving then. I'm confused, you keep switching answers. Before it was to save souls, now you are the 'introducer' to the soul saver.
I am throwing Jesus the alley-oop (passing the person to Jesus), and Jesus is the one slam dunking the person into the hoop..the basketball hoop that is eternal life.

Like I said, joint team effort.
benchwarmer wrote: But you already claimed no one but God/Jesus(/Holy Spirit) are required. Maybe you want to go back and change the answer to that one?
Joint team effort. Matthew 28:19..

19 Therefore (believers/disciples) go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Trinity).
benchwarmer wrote: Sure, I get that. It would be hard to get people to believe in something only written about in an ancient religious text.
But it apparently aint hard to believe in things written in contemporary science books...you know, things like inanimate matter coming to life and beginning to talk...and reptiles evolving into birds.
benchwarmer wrote: Been there, got the t-shirt. Still nothing about soul saving here though.
Disingenuous. To become a disciple is to have your soul saved.
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if you managed to successfully make someone a disciple, their soul is automatically saved?
If by becoming a disciple, they believe with their mind, body, and spirit that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then yeah..their soul is automatically saved.
benchwarmer wrote: That's news to me. It seems whether a soul is saved rests in the final decision of God when you show up at the pearly gates - at least according to the tales.
The tale actually states; he who believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). It says nothing about having to "wait until the final decision of God at the pearly gates".

That is you talking, not the Bible.

It also states that, contrary to John 3:16, verse 18..

"....but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son"

This verse also says nothing about "having to wait until the final decision of God at the pearly gates".....rather, before you even get to the point of judgement, you are "already condemned"...basically, a dead man walking.

So, since this was obviously "news" to you, maybe you should shake the dust off of your Bible, read it, and THEN critique it. Instead of the other way around.
benchwarmer wrote: And a single drop of water can prevent a forest fire. What's that got to do with soul saving?
Well, there was no drop of water to prevent Christianity from spreading from 11 devout men to now the worlds largest religion.

Again, not an argument ad populum, just a fun fact that I enjoy sharing whenever I get the chance.
benchwarmer wrote: So believers are required then. God/Jesus/Holy spirit are powerless to save souls without believers.
So, because I'd like my son to assist me in changing the car's tire, therefore, I am "powerless" to change the tire without him.

Non sequitur. In other words, your conclusion does not follow from your premises..thus; all in all..fallacious reasoning.
benchwarmer wrote: And I note you still avoided the question. Why? Is it because you've created/noticed a contradiction? Surely God could do anything, yet now we have to maintain that believers are required or the whole thing goes up in smoke. It's one or the other. Believers required or not? God able or not without believers? Seems like an uncomfortable corner you are backed into.
There is a difference between preferred, and required. You do understand the difference, don't you? Or would you like me to explain it to you?
benchwarmer wrote: Umm, I do see the word 'Save' there. Are you really not reading what you post? And why are you accusing me of not seeing something you haven't even posted yet?
It sure is in there, isn't it. I missed it. My bad. '8-)' Its all good. Try this one..

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?�

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.

36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?�

38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

*carefully reads verses*

Nope, no words "soul" or "save". I guess the words "save soul" doesn't have to be literally placed in the verses for the implication of a soul being saved to apply..which was my point in the first place.

'8-)'
benchwarmer wrote: It's funny how things are 'obvious' to you in scripture that must be heavily interpreted, yet when you argue against science every scrap of evidence must land in your inbox to be convincing.
?
benchwarmer wrote: All that scripture says is that the particular thief in question is going to see Jesus later that day in Paradise. No mention is made of what happens after that meeting. Maybe the thief gets judged by God and thrown into the lake of fire. Maybe the thief gets to move in next to Jesus.
Maybe reptiles never evolved into birds in the first place.
benchwarmer wrote: Who knows? I can make things up just as easily as you. Thus, I ask for actual references, not your interpretations that are 'obvious' when clearly they are not.
Yeah, Jesus took the thief on a grand tour of Paradise before sending him to hell. LMAO.

And yeah, it is clearly obvious...since we have Scripture after Scripture after Scripture of Jesus preaching all of this stuff about "faith", and how faith is so much required for eternal life...and also Scripture after Scripture of those who exercised faith in Jesus, and the good things that happened to them as a result of their faith in Jesus..with the thief being no exception.

Now, if that reference ain't good enough for you...then too bad.

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Post by For_The_Kingdom »

brunumb wrote:
This comment of yours borders on being offensive given the way you handled the discussion relating to evolution. Please refrain from passing judgement on others when you are at least equally, if not more culpable.

:study:
Evolution? What is evolution? Oh, I remember..something about reptiles evolving into birds. Yeah, I handled that pretty well by stating that I've never observed it in nature nor do I have any scientific reasons to conclude that it can ever actually occur.

So, I handled it truthfully.

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Post by benchwarmer »

You repeated this a lot:
For_The_Kingdom wrote: Joint team effort
but you still never directly answered the question. I wonder why that is?

The closest you got was alluding to the fact it's preferred to have believers help out, but not required. Care to comment on why you think it's preferred? Wouldn't a direct message from God be a whole lot more convincing than fallible humans trying to convince people they need to be 'saved'?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Sure, I get that. It would be hard to get people to believe in something only written about in an ancient religious text.
But it apparently aint hard to believe in things written in contemporary science books...you know, things like inanimate matter coming to life and beginning to talk...and reptiles evolving into birds.
You would have a valid analogy if science was only found in books. Sadly this analogy falls flat in the biology labs.
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Been there, got the t-shirt. Still nothing about soul saving here though.
Disingenuous. To become a disciple is to have your soul saved.
You sure throw that word around a lot. Is that your method for 'soul saving'? Instead of providing solid and respectful answers to hard questions a few back handed insults are the order of the day? After all the painstaking time we take to provide multiple answers to your anti science rants, you proudly land on 'disingenuous' a couple posts in while 'on the job saving souls'?
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: Are you suggesting that if you managed to successfully make someone a disciple, their soul is automatically saved?
If by becoming a disciple, they believe with their mind, body, and spirit that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then yeah..their soul is automatically saved.
That's odd, in another thread you are accusing disciples who've left as never having been 'in the faith'. Which is it?
For_The_Kingdom wrote: Anybody that leaves the faith was never with us to begin with...
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
benchwarmer wrote: That's news to me. It seems whether a soul is saved rests in the final decision of God when you show up at the pearly gates - at least according to the tales.
The tale actually states; he who believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). It says nothing about having to "wait until the final decision of God at the pearly gates".

That is you talking, not the Bible.
You got me, I took some liberties using a famous euphemism.

How about a direct quote:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
Matthew 12:36 New International Version (NIV)
36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.
Seems like God is going to be having a chat with everyone. Right there in my 'dusty' Bible. Well, online Bible in this case :)
For_The_Kingdom wrote: Now, if that reference ain't good enough for you...then too bad.
LOL. SMH. ?

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Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 217 by For_The_Kingdom]
"....but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son"
That which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. Pretty much applies to the whole Bible. Hearsay and creative fiction are not much to hang your hat on. Quotations like the one above are cleverly contrived to draw in the credulous and unquestioning. They have no basis in reality.
:study:

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