The Jews, the State of Israel, literal city of Jerusalem

[JehovahsWitness]

My question is mainly for bible believing Christians but Atheists and others are welcome to share their views:

• Do you believe the bible indicates that Jewish people (literal descendants of Abraham), the State of Israel, literal city of Jerusalem in the Middle East, will play any special role in the outworking of bible prophecy? If so can you explain what you believe that would be?
  
  Revelation speaks of a group of 144,000 individuals chosen from the twelve tribes of Israel, what do you think this is refering to?
  
  The bible speaks of Jesus promise that the faithful Apostles will "sit on thrones" and judge "the twelve tribes of Israel", what do you think this refers to?

[2timothy316]

Biblicaly I don't see that modern day Jerusalem fits the part of God's Jerusalem nor the literal nation of Israel. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her . . . Look! Your house is abandoned to you.� (Matthew 23:37, 38) Along with Jesus statement here are just a few prophecies that the State of Israel does not fit.

1. The State of Israel has not stopped fighting is wars. Isaiah 2:4: “They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore." For the State of Israel they are no where near fulfilling this prophecy. In fact they are going the getting worse about fighting other nations.

2. Daniel 2:44 states: “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. ... And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people." The State of Israel is run by people.

3. “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.�’ Zechariah 8:23. The State of Israel is very much the opposite of this. Many nations would like to see Israel destroyed, very few people from the nations are saying 'we want to go with you'.

There are many more prophecies that the State of Israel doesn't fit. But does that mean that this nation will not be used in some other way to fulfill some other prophecy? That is totally up for speculation. Perhaps they will be the first religion to be taken down by the Wild Beast. Who knows? Only Jehovah.

[bluethread]

First, at least on this site, the term "literal" is often used as an absolute. However, in practice, even those who insist on that usage do not use it that way. In fact, it is quite common for people to use the term literally when they mean figuratively in an uncommon way. This feeds into the presumption that figurative speech is lesser speech. Figurative speech is valuable when one wishes to communicate a concept without having to provide empirical evidence. If one wishes to note the importance of a concept that is being referred to in a figurative fashion, one needs to note that without referring to it as literal.

Also, the term literal need not be limited to the empirical. There are things that are beyond verification and replication using the five senses. Many rational concepts are literal, but not empirical. Laws are such things. They do not exist empirically, but are referred to as literal, because one can look at the "letter" of the law, as opposed to the "spirit" of the law. One can establish the "letter" of the law by empirical means by stating it or looking it up. But the actual law is not an empirical thing, but a shared mental construct.

Sorry for getting figuratively in the weeds, but when one is talking about what is and is not literal, it is important to be clear. For example, the 144K can literally be Israelites, even if one can not verify their DNA. One's heredity is not subject to DNA verification, DNA verification is just one tool one can use to verify one's heredity. Also, idioms can be literal, but they need not be. Sitting on a throne is an idiom for being in authority. The idiom may apply literally, or it may be figurative. However, the importance of the idiom is in it's accuracy with regard to the concept, not whether it literally applies to the given situation or not. So, when one is referring to an idiom, accuracy is what is important, not whether it is literal or not.

With all of that in mind, the promises to Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov had both literal and figurative elements. There is a literal promise of a homeland. I say this because there are specific landmarks. That literal land is promised to literal descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov, because the stories refer to workarounds that are rejected in favor of literal heredity. Also, I think the 144K will be literally descendants of Yocav, because the Revelation, specifically refers to the tribes from which they come. I believe that the Apostles sitting on thrones, judging Israel and the nations, is an idiom. Therefore whether there will be actual thrones or not is not important, what is important is that they will be given authority.

The figurative parts of the promises relate to the blessings and curses. Many of the blessings and curses are applicable to those who are not literal Israelites based on how they interact with Israel and HaTorah. This what Paul refers to when he says, (Rom2:28-29) "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." In this reference to the proper understanding of who is acceptable to Adonai, he is careful to ask, (Rom. 3:1-2a) "What advantage, then, is there in being a (hereditary) Jew, or what value is there in (rabbinic) circumcision? Much in every way!" He then notes that, Rom3:2b) "First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God." and (Rom. 9:4-5) "Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah . . . "

[JehovahsWitness]

There is a literal promise of a homeland. I say this because there are specific landmarks. That literal land is promised to literal descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov, because the stories refer to workarounds that are rejected in favor of literal heredity. . . . "

I don't remember if you believe in Jesus and Heaven ect or not but if you do could you tell me what part you believe the literal State of Israel and descendants of Abraham play in the eternal universal plan (if you believe in one)?

Thanks

JW

[bluethread]

There is a literal promise of a homeland. I say this because there are specific landmarks. That literal land is promised to literal descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov, because the stories refer to workarounds that are rejected in favor of literal heredity. . . . "

I don't remember if you believe in Jesus and Heaven ect or not but if you do could you tell me what part you believe the literal State of Israel and descendants of Abraham play in the eternal universal plan (if you believe in one)?

Thanks

JW

They are to be a light to the nations regarding Adonai's ways and the caretakers of the Scriptures, artifacts and history of the patriarchs. Those things provide us with the context needed to properly understand the eternal universal plan.

[JehovahsWitness]

There is a literal promise of a homeland. I say this because there are specific landmarks. That literal land is promised to literal descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov, because the stories refer to workarounds that are rejected in favor of literal heredity. . . . "

I don't remember if you believe in Jesus and Heaven ect or not but if you do could you tell me what part you believe the literal State of Israel and descendants of Abraham play in the eternal universal plan (if you believe in one)?

Thanks

JW

They are to be a light to the nations regarding Adonai's ways and the caretakers of the Scriptures, artifacts and history of the patriarchs. Those things provide us with the context needed to properly understand the eternal universal plan.

• Like Museum keepers? Where will this be? Do you believe in heaven? Do you believe being a natural Jew plays any role beyond taking care of (I presume) literal physical items? Will they be humans on earth while taking care of holy artifacts? Wil this be for all eternity?

I'm trying to understand their role in as to our eternal salvation (if you believe in this concept)

Thanks

[brianbbs67]

My question is mainly for bible believing Christians but Atheists and others are welcome to share their views:

• Do you believe the bible indicates that Jewish people (literal descendants of Abraham), the State of Israel, literal city of Jerusalem in the Middle East, will play any special role in the outworking of bible prophecy? If so can you explain what you believe that would be?
  
  Revelation speaks of a group of 144,000 individuals chosen from the twelve tribes of Israel, what do you think this is refering to?
  
  The bible speaks of Jesus promise that the faithful Apostles will "sit on thrones" and judge "the twelve tribes of Israel", what do you think this refers to?

You are speaking of the "Elect". I believe their will be those. IDK who they will be.Of course, the middle East will play a role. But, if I have interpreted right, Isreal will falll and rise again. Not until that fall, can they rise.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by brianbbs67]

Can you explain more about "the elect"? Who are they and what part will they play in Gods purpose?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 7 by brianbbs67]

Can you explain more about "the elect"? Who are they and what part will they play in Gods purpose?

They could be any of us who keep his commandments. Jew or Gentile. Mathew and Reveleation have a lot to say about them. There will be 144000 of them and they will rule in heaven with the Lord. Whether earthly bodies or not. One thing to remember, don't think you are special or preferred just because some man told you, you are. God makes His own choices and sometimes, confounds us all.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by brianbbs67]

Can you explain more about "the elect"? Who are they and what part will they play in Gods purpose?

They could be any of us who keep his commandments. Jew or Gentile. Mathew and Reveleation have a lot to say about them. There will be 144000 of them and they will rule in heaven with the Lord. Whether earthly bodies or not. One thing to remember, don't think you are special or preferred just because some man told you, you are. God makes His own choices and sometimes, confounds us all.

Won't we all "rule in heaven with the Lord"? Are you saying there are two classe of believers with two different destinies?