The Jews, the State of Israel, literal city of Jerusalem

[JehovahsWitness]

My question is mainly for bible believing Christians but Atheists and others are welcome to share their views:

• Do you believe the bible indicates that Jewish people (literal descendants of Abraham), the State of Israel, literal city of Jerusalem in the Middle East, will play any special role in the outworking of bible prophecy? If so can you explain what you believe that would be?
  
  Revelation speaks of a group of 144,000 individuals chosen from the twelve tribes of Israel, what do you think this is refering to?
  
  The bible speaks of Jesus promise that the faithful Apostles will "sit on thrones" and judge "the twelve tribes of Israel", what do you think this refers to?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

Hah! not the first time. But the first time anyone has persisted.

So do you feel able to answer my question?

So won't ALL believers rule with Jesus or are there two groups of believers one group that will rule and one group that will not rule?

It's okay to say "I've never thought that deeply about my own beliefs I don't know the answer", no shame in "IDK".


JW

I am able to answer anything you ask. The answers I give may not be in tune with your beliefs but i will answer. Although , it amuses me as to this line of discourse.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am able to answer anything you ask. The answers I give may not be in tune with your beliefs but i will answer.

Excellent! So do you feel inclined to answer this one?

So won't ALL believers rule with Jesus or are there two groups of believers one group that will rule and one group that will not rule?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

We are told that there will be the Elect which means a separate group above the rest. I think this implies at least 2 groups, maybe 3 with each apostle on a throne. Could be even more. No one knows for sure.

Revelation says the Elect will rule from heaven. Along with the Apostles. That would leave the rest wherever God needs them, Earth or Heaven.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

We are told that there will be the Elect which means a separate group above the rest. I think this implies at least 2 groups, maybe 3 with each apostle on a throne. Could be even more. No one knows for sure.

Revelation says the Elect will rule from heaven. Along with the Apostles. That would leave the rest wherever God needs them, Earth or Heaven.

So you don't believer ALL the saved will be in heaven ruling with Jesus - there will be those ruling (144,000), "the elect" and then at the very least a second group ("the rest") who will NOT rule. That's pretty much what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.


Thanks, I'll let you be now, bye.


JW

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

We are told that there will be the Elect which means a separate group above the rest. I think this implies at least 2 groups, maybe 3 with each apostle on a throne. Could be even more. No one knows for sure.

Revelation says the Elect will rule from heaven. Along with the Apostles. That would leave the rest wherever God needs them, Earth or Heaven.

So you don't believer ALL the saved will be in heaven ruling with Jesus - there will be those ruling (144,000), "the elect" and then at the very least a second group ("the rest") who will NOT rule. That's pretty much what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.


Thanks, I'll let you be now, bye.


JW

Yes, how could everyone rule? You are no bother, I like discussing such as this.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 25 by brianbbs67]

Yes I pointed this out because we (Jehovah's Witnesses) are often criticized for believing there are Christians with two different "destinies", and only 144,000 believers will rule with Jesus in heaven (not all the righteous).

Some disagree that we believe this group of "elect" are not exclusively made up of literal Jews (because they point out that Revelation speaks of that number being taken from the tribes of Israel).

Still others don't like the idea of us believing those that don't rule with Jesus in heaven will live forever on earth not in heaven.

[tam]

Peace to you!

My question is mainly for bible believing Christians but Atheists and others are welcome to share their views:

• Do you believe the bible indicates that Jewish people (literal descendants of Abraham), the State of Israel, literal city of Jerusalem in the Middle East, will play any special role in the outworking of bible prophecy? If so can you explain what you believe that would be?

Yes, but not that the recent return of (some) Jews to that land is fulfillment of God's promise to gather the exiles back to the land (at this time), as some groups in Christendom believe. However, brother IS handing over (even killing) brother. Christendom is contributing to this sad event, unfortunately.

Revelation speaks of a group of 144,000 individuals chosen from the twelve tribes of Israel, what do you think this is refering to?

Exactly what it says. 144 000 individuals, 12 000 each taken from the 12 listed tribes of Israel. They are listed by specific tribes for this reason. These ones may or may not know that they are descended (by blood) from these tribes. But they are descended from these tribes. They are also all in Christ... anointed aka Christian.


Obviously there are more than just 144 000 Christians (anointed ones), and all reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But God has specifically reserved a remnant for Himself, of Israel: 144 000 from these 12 tribes of Israel. In keeping with His promises to Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob).

The bible speaks of Jesus promise that the faithful Apostles will "sit on thrones" and judge "the twelve tribes of Israel", what do you think this refers to?

I think this refers to exactly what it says as well.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Obviously there are more than just 144 000 Christians (anointed ones), and all reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But God has specifically reserved a remnant for Himself, of Israel: 144 000 from these 12 tribes of Israel. In keeping with His promises to Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob).

So would it be fair to say there will be a special "sub group" within those that will rule with Jesus reserved ONLY for those of Jewish descent?

What part (if any) will the literal city of Jerusalem play in this?

JW

[tam]

Obviously there are more than just 144 000 Christians (anointed ones), and all reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But God has specifically reserved a remnant for Himself, of Israel: 144 000 from these 12 tribes of Israel. In keeping with His promises to Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob).

So would it be fair to say there will be a special "sub group" within those that will rule with Jesus reserved ONLY for those of Jewish descent?

Yes, with one clarification. Jews are only one portion of Israel (or two portions - if we are counting Benjamin). The 144 000 are split equally from twelve tribes. So it is twelve tribes of Israel (not twelve tribes of Jews).

I'm not saying you did not understand that; I am just clarifying.

What part (if any) will the literal city of Jerusalem play in this?

I do not know what part (if any) that the literal city of Jerusalem will play in anything... other than being a place at the moment where brother is against brother (at least until Christ returns).

But the literal city is not the NEW Jerusalem spoken of in Revelation. The New Jerusalem that is spoken of in Revelation is a city made of people (not houses, streets, stone, brick, mortar, wood, etc). She is the Bride (made of the 144 000 from Israel, as well as people from every tribe, nation, tongue and people).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 25 by brianbbs67]

Yes I pointed this out because we (Jehovah's Witnesses) are often criticized for believing there are Christians with two different "destinies", and only 144,000 believers will rule with Jesus in heaven (not all the righteous).

I think all of our destinies are different.

Some disagree that we believe this group of "elect" are not exclusively made up of literal Jews (because they point out that Revelation speaks of that number being taken from the tribes of Israel).

Since Jew refers to Judah, no not all Jews.

Still others don't like the idea of us believing those that don't rule with Jesus in heaven will live forever on earth not in heaven.

That one I have no opinion on. I leave space there. I think we wi;l be where God needs us.