For non trinitarian monotheists

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:03 am

How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

Dont you think that unlikely?

Any doubts?

tam · Post by **tam** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:58 pm

Peace to you!

Wootah wrote: How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?
Well, lets look at some of those stories:

God saved Noah (and family) from the flood, while protecting the seed, by means of the ark.

God saved the firstborns of Israel from the Destroyer by means of the blood of the lamb He told them to put on their doorposts, causing Death (the Destroyer) to pass over those houses.

Those who were bit (and poisoned) by scorpions and snakes in the desert, lived only if they turned their eyes to the copper serpent (representing Christ), that God told Moses to make.

Daniel was saved from the lions by means of an angel keeping the lions mouths closed (if I remember correctly). His friends were saved from the fire by means of an angel protecting them from the fire. Who sent those angels?

Looking specifically at Christ:

He is the Tree of Life... and in order for anyone (other than God) to live forever, one must eat from Him.

He gave His life for our lives (God could not have died Himself - how could anything or anyone live if God ceased to exist, if it were even possible that God ceased to exist?)

LIFE for LIFE.

And that was not even the first time that Christ gave His life for us. He is the lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. He gave his life in the creation of the world.

So Christ has always been involved in giving us life. Of course. He is the Life!

And if one man (Adam) could sell his entire offspring to death (subjecting us to death), why could another man (whose life was worth more than all the lives of men), not give His life to ransom ours back from death?

GOD is the one who sacrificed His Son; who planned everything in advance; and God is the One saving us... by means of His Son; who is the ARK we have been given by God so that we may live. That Son saves us also, having willingly laid down His life for us.

Dont you think that unlikely?
No, I don't. In fact, I think it is completely in line with all the other times that God has saved man.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

FWI · Post by **FWI** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:50 pm

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.

What support do you have for this claim?

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:35 pm

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

It seems very logical.
Every mythology, even comic book mythologies, go through the same patterns.

Chaos --> Creation --> tales of titans --> tales of demi-gods --> tales of men.
Chaos --> Creation --> Prometheus --> Heracles --> Theseus
Chaos --> Creation --> Adam/Eve (transformed into men from Egyptian stories) --> Jesus --> Disciples

Saviors go through iterations, greater to weaker.
It is a logical progression to make the religion of Jerusalem have a demi-god and then disciples to the rescue...

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:34 pm

FWI wrote: [Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe.
What support do you have for this claim?

Ahhh an innocent enough question FWI but know this.

ttruscott has injected his brand of belief into a thousand threads and I humbly ask that this question goes no further within this thread and if you insist please create a new thread to enquire of ttrustcott.

In fact it seems like with 2018 approaching a new rule should be considered: that all questions to ttruscott are in fact questions for a specific user and should be moved to said thread.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:14 am

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

It seems very logical.
Every mythology, even comic book mythologies, go through the same patterns.

Chaos --> Creation --> tales of titans --> tales of demi-gods --> tales of men.
Chaos --> Creation --> Prometheus --> Heracles --> Theseus
Chaos --> Creation --> Adam/Eve (transformed into men from Egyptian stories) --> Jesus --> Disciples

Saviors go through iterations, greater to weaker.
It is a logical progression to make the religion of Jerusalem have a demi-god and then disciples to the rescue...

Well said. Observe non trinitarians. You are following a pattern.

The reality however is only God saves. The other stories are desperately trying to have a man saving.

It is hubris and arrogance.

edit: Willum why do you think you can see the obvious but the non-trinitarian monotheists can't?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:18 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
I'm one of Jehovah's Witnessses , I don't worship Jesus I worship JEHOVAH and there is no account of Jesus requesting worship from anyone. Indeed, Jesus said to worship Jehovah (YHWH) alone.

Hi JW,

No you don't worship Jesus. That's why this thread is for you.

Whereas every other story in the Bible has God saving man. You think that in the end it was a man that made peace with God.

Out of a scale of 1 - 10 where 1 is not clearly and 10 is clearly. How clearly can you comprehend this fact?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:25 am

[Replying to post 11 by tam]

You say Jesus is the life. I say God is the life. Only one of us can be right.

And if one man (Adam) could sell his entire offspring to death (subjecting us to death), why could another man (whose life was worth more than all the lives of men), not give His life to ransom ours back from death?

Because a man can't pay for sins against God.

Remember all the stories you quoted. It's Gd saving man. God saving man. God saving man. And here you are saying and now in the climax it's man saving man.

Are you sure you are understanding the stories in the OT?

Out of a scale of 1 - 10 where 1 is not clearly and 10 is clearly. How clearly can you comprehend this discrepancy between your understanding of the Old and New testaments?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:12 am

Wootah wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
I'm one of Jehovah's Witnessses , I don't worship Jesus I worship JEHOVAH and there is no account of Jesus requesting worship from anyone. Indeed, Jesus said to worship Jehovah (YHWH) alone.
Hi JW,

No you don't worship Jesus. That's why this thread is for you.

Whereas every other story in the Bible has God saving man. You think that in the end it was a man that made peace with God.

Out of a scale of 1 - 10 where 1 is not clearly and 10 is clearly. How clearly can you comprehend this fact?

I do believe I have already addressed this issue HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 992#897992

... again HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 069#898069

Out of a scale of 1 - 10 where 1 is I choose to ignore the points you made in the links above and 10 is I acknowledge what you wrote and concede to your points; how clearly can you comprehend this fact?

JW

tam · Post by **tam** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:39 pm

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 11 by tam]

You say Jesus is the life. I say God is the life. Only one of us can be right.

Truly?

First let me be clear for the sake of accuracy: I have not said that "Jesus" is the life. I have not said this, because "Jesus" is not His name. I have said that Christ is the Life.

However, I am merely repeating the words of Christ (whom you call Jesus), who said Himself,

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." John 14:6

â€œI am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." John 11:26

How do people miss that? How does anyone get that wrong?

Christ is the Life.

Those are HIS words. And I am merely repeating the truth that HE has taught.

**

So... your statement actually reads:

Christ says that He is the Life. Wootah says God is the Life. Wootah then says only one of you (Christ or Wootah) can be right.

And if one man (Adam) could sell his entire offspring to death (subjecting us to death), why could another man (whose life was worth more than all the lives of men), not give His life to ransom ours back from death?
Because a man can't pay for sins against God.
No detail? No support for this statement? Please provide something to support it. Because as it stands it is a nonsensical statement to me.

That being said, I'm wondering if some of this is not some kind of a strawman to begin with? No one is saying (or at least I am not) that Christ is 'just' a man. He is the Son of God; He is the Light (Let there be Light!) who came forth from God. He is the Tree of Life, from whom we must eat to live. He is the Holy Spirit and Holy One of God (who is Himself the Most Holy One).

No one comes to the Father except through Christ. Yet men keep trying to bypass Him and come some other way.

(these things are addressed more fully on pages one and two of the following thread: viewtopic.php?t=33416&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 )

Remember all the stories you quoted. It's Gd saving man. God saving man. God saving man. And here you are saying and now in the climax it's man saving man.
Perhaps you should (re)read my previous post? Or at least address the specific points as I do your posts?

Are you sure you are understanding the stories in the OT?
Are you?

I am not the one stating it is wrong to say that Christ is the Life... despite His OWN words.

Out of a scale of 1 - 10 where 1 is not clearly and 10 is clearly. How clearly can you comprehend this discrepancy between your understanding of the Old and New testaments?
What discrepancy?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

1213 · Post by **1213** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:46 pm

Wootah wrote: How come the whole Bible has story after story of God saving man and yet at the finish it was a perfect man (perfect of course) who saved mankind?

Dont you think that unlikely?

Any doubts?

According to the Bible Jesus did what God had commanded him to do and Jesus couldnâ€™t have done it without God. So, it was God who saved, even if it was done through Jesus.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Also it would be good to notice that it was God who raised Jesus from the dead and so saved the whole project.

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