Faith not fact

[imhereforyou]

I've been told that having faith in God is better than having proof. I guess it's because if you have no proof but believe your belief is...stronger? Better placed?
I don't get it.
Seems to me that believing in something because of absolute proof is better/stronger than believing in something without proof.
What am I missing here?

Is it better to believe in something without proof? Why or why not? And how do you do that?

Or is it better to believe in something that provides proof?

Or is there a middle ground some how?

[Divine Insight]

Unfortunately many theists often believe that faith = fact.

They are convinced their religion is true. In which case, as you point out, they wouldn't need to have faith.

The confusion between faith and fact is the greatest nemesis of religion. When they start treating their faith as fact is when they become a problem for society.

Consider Roy Moore. He totally confuses his faith with fact. He thinks that just becasue he believes in the Christian God this means that it's real and should be the basis for a theocracy that governs the entire USA. This is when someone's faith becomes a train-wreck and endangers all of society.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by imhereforyou]

I would have to see the context. Proof is better than faith surely.

What they probably mean is that you can't get absolute proof so act in faith on the proof you have. Treat God like you would anyone else.

What i mean is that we trust people more over time as we find them trustworthy. If you don't trust God much then trust him with the little you have. So i doubt you will give much or go on missions or evangelise but you might be willing to do something smaller.

[ttruscott]

I've been told that having faith in God is better than having proof. I guess it's because if you have no proof but believe your belief is...stronger? Better placed?
I don't get it.
Seems to me that believing in something because of absolute proof is better/stronger than believing in something without proof.
What am I missing here?

Is it better to believe in something without proof? Why or why not? And how do you do that?

Or is it better to believe in something that provides proof?

Or is there a middle ground some how?

To ask "Is it better to believe in something without proof?" reveals a mix up of faith and belief. Yes, the Greek can be translated either way but they do NOT have the same meaning!

Belief can mean something proven: I believe the sun will come up tomorrow which is not the same as faith, I have faith the sun will come up. In this context belief is proven by experience.

Faith on the other hand is not proven but it is not a mere belief either: Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is hope/trust in an unproven. Hope in a person unproven in their claims, for instance. This is a far cry from the ordinary use of belief though the Greek word for faith can indeed also be belief, sigh.

Seems to me that believing in something because of absolute proof is better/stronger than believing in something without proof.

If we are talking about facts, material, scientific based fact about the material world, this makes eminent sense. But spiritual things are discerned spiritually and the proof must be held in abeyance because the promise is to be fulfilled in the future. The word for believing in such an unproven 'fact' is faith, that is, a trust it is true and will be proven some day.

And sometimes we make decision based on a faith type belief: we buy insurance on the promise that if our house burns down the company will pay for it. That is faith. We save for our kid's college though we have no proof they will live that long or be intellectually and emotionally qualified to be a success in that effort. That is faith is an unproven future.

The whole world lives by faith but it is not to be mixed up with a proven belief being better because without our faith so little preps for the future would ever get done.

The proof that faith is not yet proven is in Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.…

When the promise is fulfilled, faith is gone and you bask in satisfaction that your hope was rightly placed. This is the big difference between the English word belief and the word faith.

[2timothy316]

I started a thread a long time ago on this subject. It quickly got derailed by another topic but here was the OP.

Credulity: ability or willingness to believe something

In a sentence: The quack pushing the phony medicine was taking advantage of the credulity of people hoping for miracle cures. (A rush to believe the cures will work without evidence is credulity not faith.)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credulity

Faith: strong belief or trust in someone or something

In a sentence: But while no one with a grain of sense trusted Miss Stephanie, Jem and I had considerable faith in Miss Maudie. She had never told on us, had never played cat-and-mouse with us, she was not at all interested in our private lives. She was our friend. - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird, 1960 (There was faith in Miss Maudie because there was evidence she was loyal due to her past actions. While there was no faith or trust in the actions of Miss Stephanie.)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Isn't what passes for 'faith' today actually credulity? What does the Bible say about true faith?

“Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.� (Heb 11:1)

I have faith the Sun will rise tomorrow not because I have beheld some vision of the Sun rising tomorrow, but because of the 'evident demonstration of realities' that I have seen the Sun rise every day of my life in the past.

True Faith:
1. Has a well-founded reliable basis for belief.
2. Produces real hope.
3. Is based on solid and dependable evidence.
4. Is based on accurate knowledge.
5. People are not born with it.
6. Faith begins with what we hear.
7. True faith is not a rush to believe something without evidence.
8. True faith and the evidence that accompanies it motivates us to act from a place of deep desire, what we call our 'heart'.

viewtopic.php?t=30792&highlight=credulity

[Divine Insight]

True Faith:
1. Has a well-founded reliable basis for belief.

This pretty much rules out religion.

True Faith:
2. Produces real hope.

What is "real hope"? Is unrealistic hope the same as "real hope"?

True Faith:
3. Is based on solid and dependable evidence.
4. Is based on accurate knowledge.

This rules out placing our faith in the Hebrew Bible.

True Faith:
5. People are not born with it.

Of course not. Faith requires expectations. Newborns most likely have no expectations.

True Faith:
6. Faith begins with what we hear.

So do false rumors.

True Faith:
7. True faith is not a rush to believe something without evidence.

We can rule out religions here again.

True Faith:
8. True faith and the evidence that accompanies it motivates us to act from a place of deep desire, what we call our 'heart'.

True Knowledge can motivate us even more so.

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 1 by imhereforyou]

I would have to see the context. Proof is better than faith surely.

What they probably mean is that you can't get absolute proof so act in faith on the proof you have. Treat God like you would anyone else.

What i mean is that we trust people more over time as we find them trustworthy. If you don't trust God much then trust him with the little you have. So i doubt you will give much or go on missions or evangelise but you might be willing to do something smaller.

God can provide ultimate proof but he doesn't. Why is that if fact is better than faith?
Trust (in other) is earned. For some God has earned their trust. But not for everyone. Of course in these 'everyone', there will be people who just flat out refuse no matter what's shown to them. But those are likely a small portion. For the remainder of the 'everyone', why can't God earn their trust I wonder?

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

they do NOT have the same meaning!

Absolutely. Yet so many (Christian or not) seem to confuse the two. Odd.

In this context belief is proven by experience.

Yet God doesn't operate that way. God relies on 'trust in me' type of context and provides little to no proof. Why can't God come down, in person, preform miracles that allow no doubt only flat out refusal? Surely he could do this. But he doesn't, relying on more faith than experiencing a rising sun.
It's sad really to think a person that's supposed to care for you will often times do more than God has ever done.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by imhereforyou]

Firstly, Believing in something and having faith in it are not the same thing.

The bible says even demons believe in God, indeed they fear Him; Satan is surely not an atheist. But do they have faith in God? Do they trust Him, do they love him, do they have confidence in his actions and act accordingly?

IS FAITH BETTER THAN FACT?

Most people in my opinion who ask this question do not know what true faith is; this leads them to present a false dichotomy. Asking if "faith is better than fact" is like asking if "oranges are better than fruit". Faith and fact are just different aspects of the same reality. Fact is a truth that can be proven, proof is an accumulation of evidence. Faith refers to the positive effects believing in truths has, it is based on the accumulation of evidence. (Blind faith is believing in something with no facts, no proof and no evidence).

JW

[imhereforyou]

True Faith:
1. Has a well-founded reliable basis for belief.

This pretty much rules out religion.

True Faith:
2. Produces real hope.

What is "real hope"? Is unrealistic hope the same as "real hope"?

True Faith:
3. Is based on solid and dependable evidence.
4. Is based on accurate knowledge.

This rules out placing our faith in the Hebrew Bible.

True Faith:
5. People are not born with it.

Of course not. Faith requires expectations. Newborns most likely have no expectations.

True Faith:
6. Faith begins with what we hear.

So do false rumors.

True Faith:
7. True faith is not a rush to believe something without evidence.

We can rule out religions here again.

True Faith:
8. True faith and the evidence that accompanies it motivates us to act from a place of deep desire, what we call our 'heart'.

True Knowledge can motivate us even more so.

So accurate and well said. Thank you for the input!

I find faith is good for some things. I just don't consider my eternal soul/life something that faith is good for. Why would I or anyone accept faith over fact?
It boggles my mind.