Implications for historical Jesus scholarship.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:03 pm

The consensus among historical Jesus scholars seems to be that the real, historical Jesus never claimed to be God, and portions of the New Testament which seem to indicate that he is God are ambiguous at best.

For debate,

-What should the Church do with the HJ conclusion that real, historical Jesus is not God, and that he never actually claimed to be God? Should the Church rework it's Creeds and/or it's liturgy? How would you envision this to be done?

-If you are a believing Christian, how do you integrate this conclusion with your own belief system? Do you dismiss the findings of HJ scholars out of hand? Or do you consider their arguments? Do you continue to worship Jesus as "God" despite evidence to the contrary, or with no real evidence that he is?

-If you wanted to remain a Christian, would you refocus the object of your devotion, from Jesus to the God of Jesus, namely the Father? And concentrate on love of God and neighbor, (as Jesus seems to have taught) instead of worshiping Jesus and attempting to convince others that he is "God" and that he died in order to "pay for" our sins?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:29 pm

[Replying to post 15 by bjs]

Where, in the Gospels, did Jesus claim to be God? If you point to the GoJ, (the most recent canonical Gospel) verses such as John 17.3 contradict the assertions found in the prologue and the "I AM" statements. (Jesus speaking to the Father J 17.3,, calls Him the "only true God")

If Jesus had actually claimed to be God, why doesn't the earliest Gospel, Mark, contain any record of the claim?

Was Jesus claim to Divinity unimportant for Mark, or his readership?

If a man had claimed to be "God" it would have been noteworthy, to say the least, don't you think?

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:25 pm

[Replying to Elijah John]

See post 7 for a discussion of a direct and explicit statement from Jesus about his divinity found in the Gospel of Mark.

marco · Post by **marco** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:43 am

bjs wrote: [Replying to Elijah John]

See post 7 for a discussion of a direct and explicit statement from Jesus about his divinity found in the Gospel of Mark.

Post 7 gives an interpretation of what Jesus might have meant. It is not good enough that we should rely on an interpretation to deduce Jesus, contrary to reason and monotheistic Scripture, is God. When he said God was his Father he applied exactly the same metaphor to us when he recommended we pray with: "Our Father...." Are we all sons of God then?

The Jews had their own excuses for rejecting him, presumably fabrications or exaggerations. We know there were some false witnesses. It is odd, then, to use that same group for a reason to suppose Jesus was God. Hatred was their likely motivation, stirred up by the high priests, not righteous indignation at his supposed blasphemy. Why turn to them when Christ is silent?

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:58 am

The goal of my spirit journey is to become like Jesus , a true human. Christianity woun't change its much debated affirmation of his divinity but its not complete its a foundation for more complete understanding, as much as people can bare. There is clearly more needed to be revealed about the purpose of our salvation resurrection and restoration. What does it mean to be a human being?

marco · Post by **marco** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:05 pm

dio9 wrote: The goal of my spirit journey is to become like Jesus , a true human. Christianity woun't change its much debated affirmation of his divinity but its not complete its a foundation for more complete understanding, as much as people can bare. There is clearly more needed to be revealed about the purpose of our salvation resurrection and restoration. What does it mean to be a human being?

That's a big question and perhaps Christ answered this when he suggested that offering some poor soul a cup of water met the needs of Christ. To love other humans should suffice; instead many "love" their God and in doing so destroy their fellow humans.

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:27 pm

[Replying to post 25 by marco]

Yes me thinks we need a religion to become a better person.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:38 pm

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 25 by marco]

Yes me thinks we need a religion to become a better person.

I don't think we need religion as the world has it or faith. We just have to do good, be good, and inspire good. Faith is not required for something to be true, neither is religion. The thing is required to be true though.

marco · Post by **marco** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:27 am

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 25 by marco]

Yes me thinks we need a religion to become a better person.

Well there are counterexamples in plenty. Just look at the long checks at airports and in a way religion is at the base of them. Take the slaughter in Paris over an offence to a 7th century prophet. Religion has burned and tortured.

I agree that religion can inspire good as well. Father Kolbe gave up his life for a fellow inmate of Auschwitz, a man he didn't know. The badness or goodness is in people, not in the faith they have found. The singer, not the song!

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:15 am

perhaps my post wasn't clear , you both misread it. I'm not saying we need religion to be a better person, I'm trying to say rather than divine centered we need human centered religion. Not denying God but affirming a humanity like Jesus' affirmation of the second most important commandment loving your neighbor and how to be a good Samaritan.

marco · Post by **marco** » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:17 am

dio9 wrote: perhaps my post wasn't clear , you both misread it. I'm not saying we need religion to be a better person,

I didn't msiread. You said: "Yes me thinks we need a religion to become a better person." What you intended by the comment is not something I was able to guess.

dio9 wrote:

I'm trying to say rather than divine centered we need human centered religion. Not denying God but affirming a humanity like Jesus' affirmation of the second most important commandment loving your neighbor and how to be a good Samaritan.

I say this all the time. We should concentrate on people not on divine power. I don't think we need much instruction in how to be a good Samaritan.