If Jesus supported blood sacrifice,

[Elijah John]

If Jesus actually supported Temple based, blood sacrifice, why did he overturn the tables at the Temple? Do conventional explanations make sense? (anti-commercialism)

And why did he teach non-bloody means of forgiveness, such as can be found in the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables, and his quotation of Hosea 6.6,

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice"

? (the rest of the Hosea passage reads "the knowledge of God, not burnt offerings")

No mention at all of the necessity of being "washed in the blood" (human or animal) in those major teachings of Jesus.

Was Jesus a preacher in the tradition of the prophets and John the Baptist preaching simple repentance instead of blood sacrifice?

Or was Jesus trying to get himself killed so he could be a "sacrifice for our sins" as well as sparing the animals?

Was Jesus martyrdom unforeseen and unintended? Or was it deliberately self-provoked.

Please address any combination of the OP questions.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

He overturned the tables in the temple because the priests were turning access to God into a transaction.

And why did he teach non-bloody means of forgiveness, such as can be found in the Lord's prayer, the Beatitudes, the Parables, and his quotation of Hosea 6.6,

Because he was about to become the sacrifice for your sins.

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Since you seem to acknowledge Israel had to make blood sacrifices what do you think they were for?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

He overturned the tables in the temple because the priests were turning access to God into a transaction.

Like the way Paul turned God's grace, mercy and forgiveness into a legalistic transaction with the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement? Jesus, by contrast, preached direct access to God's mercy, with the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, and the Parables.

And why did he teach non-bloody means of forgiveness, such as can be found in the Lord's prayer, the Beatitudes, the Parables, and his quotation of Hosea 6.6,

Because he was about to become the sacrifice for your sins.

Could be, but Jesus never really explained that his sacrifice would supplant animal sacrifice. That was left up to Paul and the author of Hebrews.

I see it as more likely that Jesus,( like the Baptist) was following in the prophetic tradition of forgiveness based on repentance, instead of sacrifice. (Hosea 6.6, Micah 6.6-8, etc, etc.)

Sometimes the Prophets executed prophetic actions in addition to their preachings. In John's case, performing "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins", and in Jesus case, creating a disturbance in the Temple.

Yes, the standard response is that Jesus was protesting the commercialism of the Temple. But that explanation doesn't really make sense for a couple of reasons.

Sacrificial animals were allowed to be sold in the outer courts of the Temple for the pilgrims, and money changing was a necessity. Roman coins were inscribed with images which violated the 2nd commandment, Jewish coins did not, and were acceptable for Temple use. So it is not likely that Jesus would have objected to those transactions per se.

Could it be that Jesus simply opposed blood sacrifice, and offered alternatives? Like prayer?


--

Since you seem to acknowledge Israel had to make blood sacrifices what do you think they were for?

They were transitional, to wean the People of God from pagan practices to enlightened monotheism. YHVH, unlike the pagan deities, does not need blood. (there's a reference in Psalms or Jeremiah that I need to track down)

Also I think you misunderstood my position. I do not acknowledge that at all. Yes, at one time YHVH allowed animal blood sacrifice as written in Mosaic law, but as I have tried to demonstrate in many of my posts the Prophets preached against sacrifice, and taught that God prefers things such as thanks and praise, simple repentance, knowledge of God (as the Living Bible puts it, "knowing God") humility and the willingness to forgive others. Even King David and his son Solomon spoke against blood sacrifice in favor of other things, such as a contrite spirit. ("Sacrifice you did not require" David said in Psalms)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Was Jesus a preacher in the tradition of the prophets and John the Baptist preaching simple repentance instead of blood sacrifice?

John the Baptist told it like it was and is.

John 1:

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.�

35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples.
36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!�

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Or was Jesus trying to get himself killed so he could be a "sacrifice for our sins" as well as sparing the animals?

Was Jesus martyrdom unforeseen and unintended? Or was it deliberately self-provoked.

None of the above.

Neither Jesus nor his Father were playing games.

They knew what would happen, what must be, and why.

It is all there in scripture.

Only believe!

[bluethread]

If Jesus actually supported Temple based, blood sacrifice, why did he overturn the tables at the Temple? Do conventional explanations make sense? (anti-commercialism)

The problem was not commercialism. It was rabbinic add-ons that made access to Adonai more difficult. First, the tables were in what was called, "the court of the gentiles". No such thing was part of the plans for the Mishkan, on which the design of the Temple was based. The only restrictions were access to the outer court to the Levite for service and the ceremonially clean for participation in the killing of the sacrifice. Access to the Miskan itself was limited to the Cohans for service. Second, the commandment was for monetary offerings to be made based on the standard of the sanctuary shekel, not exclusively in a currency called "the sanctuary shekel". Third, the nonmonetary offering need only be without physical defect and not by an artificial standard that required one to purchase the offering from the Levite approved vendors. So, Yeshua was not opposing commercialism, but excessive government mandates and government sanctioned monopolies, that artificially limit access to Adonai.

And why did he teach non-bloody means of forgiveness, such as can be found in the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables, and his quotation of Hosea 6.6,

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice"

? (the rest of the Hosea passage reads "the knowledge of God, not burnt offerings")

That was because proper intent is also required. Simple sacrifice is of no value, if it does not encourage the three r's of repentance; recognition, restitution and reformation.

No mention at all of the necessity of being "washed in the blood" (human or animal) in those major teachings of Jesus.

That is a concept that is not spoken of in the Scriptures, but is a conflation of two separate ceremonies. One never washes anything with blood. One anoints with blood. One washes with running water.

Was Jesus a preacher in the tradition of the prophets and John the Baptist preaching simple repentance instead of blood sacrifice?

Or was Jesus trying to get himself killed so he could be a "sacrifice for our sins" as well as sparing the animals?

C. Yeshua was a priest in the order of Melchizedek(king of righteousness) and Yochannan was a Levite priest in the tradition of the Prophets. Neither opposed any of the sacrifices as establish by Adonai via Moshe'.

Was Jesus martyrdom unforeseen and unintended? Or was it deliberately self-provoked.

As a proper understanding of martyrdom dictates, Yeshua did not seek death, but was faithful unto death. I believe that the nature of Yeshua's death was foreseen by Him and was orchestrated by Adonai as part of the example of how Adonai's people should approach life.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jesus did not support sacrifice-

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Matthew 12:7
If only you had known the meaning of 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Mark 12:33
and to love Him with all your heart and with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, which is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Neither did the prophets support sacrifice-

1 Samuel 15:22
Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

Psalm 50:8
"I do not reprove you for your sacrifices, And your burnt offerings are continually before Me.

Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice Is desired by the LORD more than sacrifice.

Isaiah 1:11
"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

Jeremiah 7:22
"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Hosea 2:20
And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD.

Hosea 14:2
Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to Him, "Take away all iniquity And receive us graciously, That we may present the fruit of our lips.
Treasury of Scripture

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings …

Psalm 50:8 I will not reprove you for your sacrifices or your burnt offerings, …

Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep your foot when you go to the house of God, and be more ready …

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to me? said the …

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, …

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that …

Daniel 4:27 Why, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to you, and break off your …

Amos 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn …

Micah 6:6 With which shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the …

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 9:13 But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not …

Matthew 12:7 But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not …

the.

Hosea 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, you children of Israel: for the LORD has …

1 Chronicles 28:9 And you, Solomon my son, know you the God of your father, and serve …

Jeremiah 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with …

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:6 Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jesus did not support sacrifice-

Matthew 9:13 . . .

Neither did the prophets support sacrifice-

1 Samuel 15:22 . . .

As I suspected, all of those statements are comparative, either using phrases like "rather than" or "your sacrifice", or in context spoke of the intent of the sacrifices. The purpose of the sacrifices was to encourage obedience, which includes such things as mercy. The interesting thing is that those who disparage the sacrifices, also disparage obedience to HaTorah in general. That is not the point being expressed by Yeshua and the prophets. If one is obedient and does show mercy on accordance with HaTorah, there is no need for animal sacrifice. So, apart from Yeshua, who fits that bill?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

So if some things are more desirable to YHVH than sacrifice..(things such as mercy, repentance, humility, knowledge of God, etc) don't those things render blood sacrifice superfluous at best?

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

So if some things are more desirable to YHVH than sacrifice..(things such as mercy, repentance, humility, knowledge of God, etc) don't those things render blood sacrifice superfluous at best?

No, the sacrifices are superfluous, if there is no need of a contract or none of the stipulations of a contract need be acknowledged..(things such as mercy, repentance, humility, etc.) The sacrifices serve as a reminder and acknowledgement of the Covenant. Periodically and when the Covenant is violated in stipulated cases, their needs to be a sacrifice to acknowledge that the Covenant is still in effect. Just today, I received a notification that one of my clients needs to submit an annual report before January 31, in order to continue being a corporation in the state of Washington. This is a minor sacrifice, but it serves to acknowledge the contract between my client and the state of Washington. Had my client violated that contract, there would have been additional sacrifices that my client would have had to make.