who founded the Roman church?

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:29 pm

Who founded the Roman Church? When Paul met with Peter James and John after his conversion and presented his Gospel they told him to be the apostle to the gentiles. . Peter would be the apostle to the Jews. But someone established the Roman Church. . Who was it? Not Paul. Peter is said to be the first bishop of Rome but how does this figure with Peter being the apostle to the Jews?

Any ideas about who started the Roman Church?

Galatians 2 : 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a] just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

So who started the Roman Church?

was the Roman Church Jewish Christians?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:22 pm

tam wrote: Peace to you both!

**

Christ is also the One who is speaking to Daniel about Michael (at Daniel 12).
tammy

Yes, and Christ is the one speaking of HIMSELF in Matthew 24. He often spoke in the 3rd person.

tam · Post by **tam** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:41 pm

onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote: Peace to you both!

**

Christ is also the One who is speaking to Daniel about Michael (at Daniel 12).
tammy
Yes, and Christ is the one speaking of HIMSELF in Matthew 24. He often spoke in the 3rd person.

Okay, but the One speaking in Daniel 12 is the same one speaking from Daniel 10, who said this:

â€œDo you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.)"

Notice that the One speaking makes a distinction between ME (Himself) and the one who supports Him (Michael). Two distinct persons there.

Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:29 pm

[Replying to post 179 by tam]

I stand by what I said in posts #177 and 178.

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:43 am

How does your position that Jesus is the arc angel Michel accord with the councils position that Jesus Christ is fully Man and fully God. Not an angel. If he were he would be totally not fully human, as angels are something else , totally spiritual not human.
My understanding is humans are superior beings to the angels as angels are created as servants where as Humans are created as sons and daughters.
There is a great difference between a servant and a child. A child is clearly loved more. Its all about love , Jesus was/is loved more than an angel is loved by God. orthodoxy holds Jesus is the son of God begotten not made where as Angels are made. Jesus is God and man because he is both begotten and made. Made in the womb of Mary.
To hold Jesus is an angel totally negates his humanity. He is Christ because he is human.

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:25 pm

Peace to you OWH, and to all who are reading,

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 179 by tam]

I stand by what I said in posts #177 and 178.

But what you said in post 178 in no way refutes anything stated in post 176 and 179.

As for post 177, which was addressed to Jack and not to me:

If Michael is not Jesus, then there is another person besides Jesus who is ALSO a "great prince"

Jaheshua is not merely a great prince. He is the Prince OF princes (there is only One of Him). But there are multiple princes. My Lord mentions three of those princes when speaking to Daniel: the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece; and the prince of Daniel's people (Michael). There are also multiple chief princes; Michael being one of those chief princes.

Christ is over them all (prince of princes).

... and who has the authority to "stand up" for his people.

You seem to be imbuing some kind of meaning into 'stand up' that is not justified. But if Michael supports Christ, then would he not also support those who belong to Christ?

I thought that Jesus is the only person with that authority,

I'm not sure why you are bringing 'authority' into this, but Christ is the Prince of princes; therefore that authority would also be over Michael, who has remained faithful to Christ from the very beginning and who has supported Him, whereas some other angels (such as the Adversary) have not.

and I thought Jesus is the ONLY one sent from God to do battle at the culmination of the Great Tribulation.

What battle? The great tribulation is cut short when Christ gathers His Bride up to Him (the first resurrection), then returns with her to establish His Kingdom upon the earth.

You are saying that there are TWO individuals on an equal level.

Not at all (or at least I am not saying so; I am saying the opposite). You seem to be unaware that it is the claim that Christ is the same person as Michael which states there are (at least) two individuals on an equal level. Because Michael is ONE OF the chief princes. Meaning there is more than one chief prince, and therefore, more than one on equal level with another chief prince.

If the WTS states that Michael is Christ, then the WTS is ITSELF stating that there are others on equal level with Christ.

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear so as to know the truth of these things for themselves. May anyone who thirsts "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Peace again to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:46 pm

dio9 wrote: How does your position that Jesus is the arc angel Michel accord with the councils position that Jesus Christ is fully Man and fully God. Not an angel. If he were he would be totally not fully human, as angels are something else , totally spiritual not human.
My understanding is humans are superior beings to the angels as angels are created as servants where as Humans are created as sons and daughters.
There is a great difference between a servant and a child. A child is clearly loved more. Its all about love , Jesus was/is loved more than an angel is loved by God. orthodoxy holds Jesus is the son of God begotten not made where as Angels are made. Jesus is God and man because he is both begotten and made. Made in the womb of Mary.
To hold Jesus is an angel totally negates his humanity. He is Christ because he is human.

Do you recall that the councils were made up of men, and it is not necessarily true that they were guided by Holy Spirit? The councils didn't follow the Scriptures to the letter. They fudged a great deal. The Scriptures do not tell us that Jesus was "fully God." Nowhere do they indicate such an idea.

Angels are not inferior to humans. They are on a much higher plane. Scripture says that Jesus was "made lower than angels," meaning that when he became human he was indeed lower than angels.

"You made him for a little while lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands." (Hebrews 2:7)

We learn important things from this verse. God---the Father, Jehovah---made Jesus lower than angels, therefore we see that (1) It was the Father that did the "making" or sending Jesus to the earth, so it is the Father alone that is superior and who is God and holds the position of authority over everything including Jesus Christ. (2) The Father, YHWH, then honored Jesus with a crown and a position over all things that the Father had created, or caused to be created. The Father has the power and authority OVER Jesus, to do whatever the Father pleases.

The councils say that Jesus was "begotten, not made." That is a statement thought up and worded by men, and it contradicts itself. The Bible says that Jesus Christ was "begotten," period. It does not say "not made." Begotten actually means "procreated; given rise to; caused." Therefore, for men to say "not made" they are giving a false idea.

When Jesus was born on earth, he became "fully human." Previously, when he was in heaven with his Father and the angels, he was spirit, just like his Father and the angels. He "emptied" himself and became a human being when born through Mary. (Phil.2:7) There is nowhere in the Scriptures that say he was "fully God" either in heaven or on earth. When he went back to heaven in spirit form once again, he was still the Son of God and subservient to God, just as he was before he came to Earth, and he continues subordinate to God now and in the future when he hands back the kingdom to his Father after the Millennial Reign. (I Corinthians 15:28)

Jesus being Michael the Archangel has nothing to do with his humanity. When he left heaven---the spirit realm---and came to the earth, he was fully human. When he went back to heaven, he was as the angels---spirit in form.

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:42 pm

[Replying to onewithhim]

But still who is more loved a servant or a son ? A son of course. The father in the parable didn't rejoice when his servant came home, He rejoiced when his son came home. Who is greater in God's eyes? A son of course.
Indeed it may be hard to convince you (for religious convictions) but reasonably speaking Masters certainly love their children more than their servants.
Angels are servants. Jesus and humanity are, fallen though we may be , more loved than servants. So much more that God would sent his begotten son to save us humans. Fallen angels have not.
God loves us more than the angels. Angels are not temples of God, just messengers, Don't get me wrong God loves angels too , just not as much as he loves Jesus and we humans. Angels served Jesus, and would serve us too, if humanity wasn't still so entangled with Satan. You know all the general ignorance wrong thinking and foolishness. But through Christ we can still rise above Satan's entanglements if we choose to.
This is far from the original topic , but this is where this discussion has gone.
So am I to understand you are saying Jesus is an angel?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:53 pm

dio9 wrote: [Replying to onewithhim]

But still who is more loved a servant or a son ? A son of course. The father in the parable didn't rejoice when his servant came home, He rejoiced when his son came home. Who is greater in God's eyes? A son of course.
Indeed it may be hard to convince you (for religious convictions) but reasonably speaking Masters certainly love their children more than their servants.
Angels are servants. Jesus and humanity are, fallen though we may be , more loved than servants. So much more that God would sent his begotten son to save us humans. Fallen angels have not.
God loves us more than the angels. Angels are not temples of God, just messengers, Don't get me wrong God loves angels too , just not as much as he loves Jesus and we humans. Angels served Jesus, and would serve us too, if humanity wasn't still so entangled with Satan. You know all the general ignorance wrong thinking and foolishness. But through Christ we can still rise above Satan's entanglements if we choose to.
This is far from the original topic , but this is where this discussion has gone.
So am I to understand you are saying Jesus is an angel?

Jesus is the one archangel, an angel over all the other angels. There is only one archangel, what the Catholic Church teaches notwithstanding. Gabriel is the only other angel named in the Bible, and he is not called an archangel. Jesus is above everyone in the universe except his Father.

("Angel" doesn't mean "servant." It means "messenger.")

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:06 am

[Replying to post 185 by onewithhim]

Their is another angel mention to the Hebrews, not by name in the OT. But, in Hebrew tradition , the First Messenger of the Lord was treated with the same respect as God. This may have been the one from Balaam. They called him Azreal(malak muk). But, I must admit, there are all kinds of theories...

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:58 am

[Replying to brianbbs67]

Yahweh and two angels also visited Abraham before they destroyed Sodom. I'd say they were acting as a bit more than just messengers. Their names weren't listed but they served to destroy the city.