Catholicism and original sin

[Justin108]

Can a Catholic please explain to me the concept of original sin? Do all people deserve to go to hell the moment they are born?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus' passion death and resurrection was to reconcile us to God the Father, not just to live in some utopian society ...

By "utopian society" are you speaking about the "paradise" Jesus himself promised?

Yes, Jesus said you will be with me in Paradise, I don't think Jesus was ashamed to speak about a better world without suffering. It's not why we serve Jehovah, we worship God because we love him, but He loves us in return and promises an end to suffering because no parent want to see his children suffering.


JW

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RELATED POSTS

Will paradise be "boring"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 552#862552

What is God's Kingdom and what will it do for mankind?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 402#865402

[Justin108]

God is perfect justice, so if we deserve hell we would get hell, but God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but might have eternal life.

Jesus died to repair the damage incurred on us by our forefather Adam.

Why did Jesus need to die in order to achieve that? Surely an omnipotent God can repair this damage without the need to sacrifice anything. Either that, or God is not omnipotent.

[JehovahsWitness]

God is perfect justice, so if we deserve hell we would get hell, but God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but might have eternal life.

Jesus died to repair the damage incurred on us by our forefather Adam.

Why did Jesus need to die in order to achieve that? Surely an omnipotent God can repair this damage without the need to sacrifice anything. Either that, or God is not omnipotent.

I have already answered these questions, I will link you back to them in case you missed what I posted.

RELATED POSTS

Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 214#852214

Why did Jesus have to die? [with video]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 775#846775

[Justin108]

God is perfect justice, so if we deserve hell we would get hell, but God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but might have eternal life.

Jesus died to repair the damage incurred on us by our forefather Adam.

Why did Jesus need to die in order to achieve that? Surely an omnipotent God can repair this damage without the need to sacrifice anything. Either that, or God is not omnipotent.

I have already answered these questions, I will link you back to them in case you missed what I posted.

RELATED POSTS

Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 214#852214

Why did Jesus have to die? [with video]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 775#846775

You'll notice that in both of these links, I responded to your arguments. You failed to address the issues I raised, and in typical JW fashion, eventually ignored me. So instead of linking me to arguments I already addressed, can you perhaps answer me directly? Or are we going to just skip ahead to you ignoring me as I know you eventually will once you've ran out of arguments?

[marco]

Resurrect now , don't wait for his second coming.

To "resurrect now" you would need to be dead.

It is unwise to think there is only ONE interpretation. What about this in Luke 15: 24?



"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. "

[polonius]

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1995

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.


However, The Church’s infallible (and hence “irreformable�) dogma was stated by two Ecumanical Councils. Here the quotation from one of them, the Ecumenical Council of Florence.

From the sixth session of the Council of Florence, (July 6, 1439): “The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denz., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693): “the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments� (poenis disparibus).�

The Ecumenical Council of Florence said that anyone who dies in mortal sin or only original sin descends immediately to Hell. That would mean that infants who didn’t get baptism or died due to miscarriage would burn in eternal fire suffering everlasting punishment for nothing they have personally done. St.Augustine taught this too.

So now the Catholic Church is stuck with an infallible teaching that it evidently no longer believes.

[polonius]

Catechism of the Catholic Church (1995)

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

However, The Church’s infallible (and hence “irreformable�) dogma was stated by two Ecumanical Councils. Here the quotation from one of them, the Ecumenical Council of Florence

From the sixth session of the Council of Florence, (July 6, 1439): “The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denz., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693): “the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments� (poenis disparibus).�

The Ecumenical Council of Florence said that anyone who dies in mortal sin or only original sin descends immediately to Hell. That would mean that infants who didn’t get baptism or died due to miscarriage would burn in eternal fire suffering everlasting punishment for nothing they have personally done. St.Augustine taught this too.

So now the Catholic Church is stuck with an infallible teaching that it evidently no longer believes.

[marco]

So now the Catholic Church is stuck with an infallible teaching that it evidently no longer believes.

The Council of Florence sat in the midst of major Church controversy and it is accepted that the Church has worked through imperfect vessels. Some canonisations have been rescinded. Early edicts would be reconsidered in the light of modern understanding. The simple explanation would be that those involved did not have the information to speak infallibly or had no intention of speaking infallibly.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 134 by marco]

The simple explanation would be that those involved did not have the information to speak infallibly or had no intention of speaking infallibly.

Is the RCC ever going to say this themselves? If they do, it only gives (more) ammo to those who are against them. Any time a pope declares to be speaking infallibly, his detractors would have only to say "Well he can't be, for all he knows he doesn't have all the correct information".

[polonius]

[Replying to post 134 by marco]

The simple explanation would be that those involved did not have the information to speak infallibly or had no intention of speaking infallibly.

RESPONSE:

Sorry! Perhaps you need to read up on the dogma of Ecumenical Council infallibility. Once the criteria are met, the pronouncement become infallible. An infallible pronouncement is, by it's nature, "irreformable" that, is it can NEVER be changed, added to, subtracted from or in any way altered.

So the pronouncement by the Ecumenical Council of Florence on the effect of original sin regarding infants cannot, according to Church dogma, ever be changed in any way.

“No power in heaven or on earth, neither an angel, nor the pope, nor a council, nor a law of the bishops, has the faculty to change it.�

A summation about infallible teachings by Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, the pope’s own doctrinal chief,