Is the Catholic Church infallible?

[Justin108]

But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.

Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically? Is the Catholic Church infallible?

[showme]

RightReason wrote:

But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.


Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically? Is the Catholic Church infallible?

Holding the keys and the binding on earth refers to Isaiah 22:22-25, and it applies to the heir of Peter, shown as the one carving a "resting place for yourself in the rock" (Isaiah 22:16), who shamed his "master's house", and "will be cast into a vast country; there you will die" (Isaiah 22:18). Peter is the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17) who was taken to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:17). His heir, in Isaiah 22:20, and also holder of the keys, is "Eliakim", who represents the pope. The heir, "in that day" (Isaiah 22:25), which is the "Day of the LORD, results in anyone "hanging" onto the pope, will be "cut off".

[RightReason]

[Replying to Justin108]

Quote]RightReason wrote:


But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.

Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically? Is the Catholic Church infallible?[/quote]

Well, let me at least try to help you understand by trying a different approach . . .

Do you agree that those passages are in the Bible and would you agree Christ obviously was giving someone power and authority as well as informing us that His Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Would you also agree that for something to be the pillar and foundation of truth it would need to be kept ‘free from error’ at least when it came to teaching/proclaiming matters of faith? If it was capable of erring on matters of faith, then it couldn’t really be considered the foundation of truth, right?

Now let me ask you, how many churches were founded by Christ Himself and existed over 2000 years ago? (Lutherans, Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Quakers, etc none existed 2000 years ago. In fact, some didn’t exist until the 1900’s)

And let me ask you, how many churches claim to speak infallibly? (Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, etc all deny they speak infallibly on matters of faith.)

And let me ask you, what good do you think a church would be if we couldn’t be assured it was getting it right? Should we shop for churches that fit what we believe to be right? Does that scare you? As G.K. Chesterton said, “I don’t want a church to be right when I am right, I want a church to be right when I am wrong.� Thanks be to God.

[brianbbs67]

Except the Roman church is not the first church. Christians were doing well(persecuted ., yet growing) in the mediteranian up to the 200's. The rift occurred at Nicea(325). Gone were the Holy days. Changed for new "christianized ones".

I will paraphrase Ireneous here. He was writing to the pope.(Victor, IIRR)

"As your excellency knows, Polycarp was quite Orthodox in his beliefs, but quite forgiving, in non theological matters, such as the date to celebrate easter"

That should say it all.

[RightReason]

[Replying to brianbbs67]

Except the Roman church is not the first church.

The Catholic Church can trace her roots back to Jesus Christ Himself, and Peter the first Pope. That is the history.

I will paraphrase Ireneous here. He was writing to the pope.(Victor, IIRR)

"As your excellency knows, Polycarp was quite Orthodox in his beliefs, but quite forgiving, in non theological matters, such as the date to celebrate easter"

That should say it all.

Uummm . . . that says nothing. From Scripture . . .

11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. - Galatians 2:11-13

God has always worked with ordinary men, who can at times screw up. This does not negate the fact that Christ established His Church and appointed leaders.

[marco]

Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically? Is the Catholic Church infallible?

The Catholic Church doesn't claim to be infallible; it alters its rulings from time to time. In extremis, when there is some dilemma over morals or doctrine that requires definition, then the Church believes that Christ spoke honestly when he said he would not let the gates of hell prevail against her.

But yesterday she may have said it's wrong to eat meat on Fridays or to receive the sacrament without fasting from the previous day; today she says otherwise. She accepts she is an institution made of fallible people and may even have the odd Judas or Borgia Pope.

[JJ50]

The Catholic church has shown how fallible it is over and over again!

[marco]

The Catholic church has shown how fallible it is over and over again!

As all human institutions have. We may not agree with the small print in the theology but it has to be admitted that there are many people who have been Catholics who displayed a high level of sanctity and goodness. Blanket condemnation is unmerited. People often have to make sense of their geography and the system and times into which they have been born and many make a supreme effort to make sense of their religion and their God.

I worry about those individuals who feel I need to meet their God sooner than I would choose to.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 5 by RightReason]

First I would say, no one is infallible. Second, There was a church established in Rome that was persecuted at the Jews urging until Constatine used the sect to claim victory in battle and the rest is written history. Things(practices of worship) changed greatly. Peter and Paul disagreed so vehemently they could not even share a boat. Doesn't meant both were right or wrong. Just means there was a rift early on in church history.(see Acts for scripture)

This is one of many doctrinal debates from the early years. Interestingly enough, we still argue them now. That alone suggests in 2000 years there is not a clear answer or we all would believe it.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 9 by brianbbs67]

First I would say, no one is infallible.

Agreed. No human being is infallible. But Christ’s Church IS. How could it not be?

Peter and Paul disagreed so vehemently they could not even share a boat. Doesn't meant both were right or wrong.

Correct again, unless of course they were speaking on theological matters and specifically claimed to be teaching authoritatively regarding a matter of the faith. If the first Christians could not have believed what they were teaching came from God and was true, why would they have listened to them? Why would Christ have said, “He who hears you, hears me�? Why would Christ have specifically told Peter, “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven?� Jesus was giving them power and authority. Would Christ have told us to listen to His Church if He wasn’t planning on protecting His Church from steering us wrong?

This is one of many doctrinal debates from the early years. Interestingly enough, we still argue them now. That alone suggests in 2000 years there is not a clear answer or we all would believe it.

I agree with your first sentence, but then to me your conclusion doesn’t logically follow. Just because there were doctrinal debates from early on does not mean there was no clear answer. It simply means sometimes people didn’t accept the final say of the Church. They thought they knew better and left, starting their own church, which is now why we have over thousands of different Christian denominations all teaching different things.

Jesus promised to remain with His Church. It is clear in Scripture He intended One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.