Did god set up Adam and Eve to fail?

[Kenisaw]

The basic timeline in Genesis goes like this:

God creates Adam, and then creates Eden and sticks Adam in there. In Eden is a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam is told to leave it alone. Then god makes Eve so Adam isn't alone.

One day the happy couple decide to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their "eyes were opened" as it were.

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions. Sure they knew god said they would "surely die" if they ate from that tree, but not knowing whether that is a good or bad thing (because they didn't know good from bad) there was no reason not to eat the fruit. They couldn't even know that disobeying god was a bad thing.

Didn't god set them up to fail in this scenario?

[ttruscott]

The basic timeline in Genesis goes like this:

God creates Adam, and then creates Eden and sticks Adam in there. In Eden is a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam is told to leave it alone. Then god makes Eve so Adam isn't alone.

One day the happy couple decide to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their "eyes were opened" as it were.

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions. Sure they knew god said they would "surely die" if they ate from that tree, but not knowing whether that is a good or bad thing (because they didn't know good from bad) there was no reason not to eat the fruit. They couldn't even know that disobeying god was a bad thing.

Didn't god set them up to fail in this scenario?

Since I have always felt this interpretation to have some truth, once I decided YHWH could not have done it this way with any malicious intent or even carelessness, I spent quite a few years trying to understand a theology that would explain what happened in the garden within GOD's attributes of being lovingly righteous.

Thus I arrived at my timeline of the creation and the fall...

In short (which means details are missing and holes of logic are not closed in this short overview):

1. GOD created all the spirits in HIS image.
2. HE asked us all to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD or to reject HIS claims.
3. WE all chose by a free will with an equal ability and opportunity to choose to be perfectly eternally righteous or to be perfectly eternally evil. The ones who put their faith in HIM as their GOD were chosen to be HIS elect to be saved from all sin. The ones who rejected HIS deity were condemned, passed over for election as they had put themselves outside of HIS promise of salvation and election by their rejection of HIS deity.

4. Unwilling to abide these evil ones for a minute longer than necessary, once all the decision making was over and set, HE called for all the elect people to come out from among the non-elect so they could be judged. Most obeyed this call but some few elect rejected the call as too judgemental, too unloving and, putting their friends who were non-elect above the command of GOD, refused to quit their friendship and love for the non-elect. This made them as evil as the non-elect but since they were under the promise of salvation that they would never be judged the postponement of the judgement was forced upon GOD until every last one of them would be redeemed, made holy and righteous and heaven ready.

6. Then HE called the remaining elect to come away from their sinful elect friends and not follow their evil but to trust them to HIS mercy. Again most did as HE wanted but some few followed their elect friends into sin, not trusting them with GOD's mercy and not wanting to leave them alone. This continued until all the decisions about their relationship with YHWH (who they would reject HIM for) were finalized.

6. All sinners of all three types, (those condemned already who idolized themselves above GOD, those elect who idolized Satan and some of HIS angels above their GOD and those sinful elect who idolized their sinful elect friends above their GOD), were sent to earth to live as humans for the purpose of the redemption and sanctification of the sinful elect and then the harvest.

Only sinners are sent to earth to be born. No innocents are born on earth, only the sinful...except Christ of course.

Adam and Eve, like all sinners, refused to believe that they could have been sinful for choosing to love someone so they did not accept being called sinful as the metaphor naked means in spiritual terms. They were indeed naked but not ashamed. GOD gave them the command not to eat to prove their sinfulness by proving their inability to keep an easy command which is the scriptural use of the commandments.

True to their relationship with each other, Eve followed the serpent and Adam followed her into their newest sin of eating. They immediately knew they were sinful because they had broken the law and their eyes were opened to their nakedness, the sin they had before they ate, and they were finally ashamed enough to seek the salvation they had been promised. At the same time, Eve learned that the love she had for her friend the serpent was misplaced, that he would never choose holiness nor love over rebellion and that he was in fact her worst enemy. She would never follow him again, the goal of all sanctification, having eaten herself out of one paradise already at his urging.

So GOD's plan for the garden worked perfectly. Satan was exposed as a liar and their enemy and they accepted his being judged. Adam and Eve learned that they were indeed already sinners and that the process of sanctification was not a bed of roses but a life of suffering with or even under evil until they repented. This lesson is repeated for every sinful elect human until the last one, the most stubborn, is finally sanctified and made holy and righteous, ie, heaven ready...and then the judgement will be called.

So yes indeed they were set up to fail as a sinner always will before the law, but since it was the first step in their redemption and sanctification, the story of the Garden of Eden is not the story of mankind's first sin but of GOD's Greatest Blessing that HE can give, the restoration of a sinner to their first free will acceptance of HIM as their GOD!

[JehovahsWitness]

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions.

I see your problem. I seems to stem from wrongly interpreting what the bible means by the expression "their eyes came to be opened" as well as favoring a literal interpretation of the name of the tree. If you accept that the passages can be interpreted differently, then your problem will be solved.

I suggest reading some alternative interpretations which I'm sure will be presented by various contributors.

[JehovahsWitness]

1. GOD created all the spirits in HIS image.
2. HE asked us all to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD or to reject HIS claims.
3. WE all chose by a free will with an equal ability and opportunity to choose ...

A few question (I'm going to refer to "individuals" instead of "spirits", I don't think that changes anything in the central issue).

HE asked us all to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD ...

a) How was this choice presented?

• It seems to me there must have been more to the choice than recognize the Creator as being at the origin of life; this is just a statement of fact that really cannot be contended (its rather like someone claming to be one's biological father, something a simple DNA test would settle, then the child is obliged to recognize the fact. Of course this in no way reflects ones LOYALTY and love of that one. Satan himself recognizes God as the (his) creator but he (Satan) is rebellious and disloyal and has no love or respect for God.

So my question in real terms what was the choice and how was this choice presented?

[Goat]

The basic timeline in Genesis goes like this:

God creates Adam, and then creates Eden and sticks Adam in there. In Eden is a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam is told to leave it alone. Then god makes Eve so Adam isn't alone.

One day the happy couple decide to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their "eyes were opened" as it were.

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions. Sure they knew god said they would "surely die" if they ate from that tree, but not knowing whether that is a good or bad thing (because they didn't know good from bad) there was no reason not to eat the fruit. They couldn't even know that disobeying god was a bad thing.

Didn't god set them up to fail in this scenario?

That depends on how you look at the story. If you notice, after Adam and Eve ate, they were confronted by God, who asked them how they knew they were naked, and basically, caught them red handed with their hands the cookie jar so to speak. It wasn't until they tried to point the blame elsewhere did God become all upset and kick them out of the garden of Eden. It wasn't eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that did them in, but the attempted coverup. Sort of liker how Nixon got in trouble for trying to cover up Watergate.

They didn't accept the responsibility of their own actions AFTER they knew it was bad. That is why they got punished.

[Tiberius47]

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions.

I see your problem. I seems to stem from wrongly interpreting what the bible means by the expression "their eyes came to be opened" as well as favoring a literal interpretation of the name of the tree. If you accept that the passages can be interpreted differently, then your problem will be solved.

I suggest reading some alternative interpretations which I'm sure will be presented by various contributors.

Why don't you provide some of these alternative explanations instead of just saying that he's wrong?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

The basic timeline in Genesis goes like this:

God creates Adam, and then creates Eden and sticks Adam in there. In Eden is a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam is told to leave it alone. Then god makes Eve so Adam isn't alone.

One day the happy couple decide to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their "eyes were opened" as it were.

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions. Sure they knew god said they would "surely die" if they ate from that tree, but not knowing whether that is a good or bad thing (because they didn't know good from bad) there was no reason not to eat the fruit. They couldn't even know that disobeying god was a bad thing.

Didn't god set them up to fail in this scenario?

According to prevailing Christian doctrine God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. If God is omnipotent then God got exactly the result He intended to get when He created Adam, Eve and the serpent. If God is omniscient then He got exactly the result He intended to get when He brought them all together in the Garden.

God needs a good therapist.

[Tcg]

That depends on how you look at the story. If you notice, after Adam and Eve ate, they were confronted by God, who asked them how they knew they were naked, and basically, caught them red handed with their hands the cookie jar so to speak. It wasn't until they tried to point the blame elsewhere did God become all upset and kick them out of the garden of Eden. It wasn't eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that did them in, but the attempted coverup. Sort of liker how Nixon got in trouble for trying to cover up Watergate.

They didn't accept the responsibility of their own actions AFTER they knew it was bad. That is why they got punished.

If you are basing this on the Genesis story, then there are a few clear statements in Genesis 3 that disagree with your conclusion.

When Eve states that the serpent deceived her, god's first reaction is to curse the serpent. When god does get around to cursing Adam, he states his reason very clearly:

Genesis 3:17a - Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;".

Adam is cursed for two reasons. The first is for listening to his wife. The second is for eating fruit from the tree god told him not to. If god was upset about a cover up, he never bothers to mention it.

[Tcg]

Didn't god set them up to fail in this scenario?

It is quite clearly a setup. This story could be compared to a parent setting up a bedroom for their young children. In the corner, there is a sawed off shotgun which is loaded and cocked. The parent tells them not to put the end of the shotgun barrel into their mouths and then pull the trigger or else they will die.

Of course the parent has also supplied the room with a psychopathic babysitter who tells the kids that they won't die if they blow their heads off with the shotgun.

What sane, loving parent would supply their kids with such a room? None of course. How some people can excuse this behavior in their god is a mystery to me, but as we have seen from some of the responses, there are many who are compelled to provide such excuses. I wonder how many who do so grew up with shotguns in their nurseries?

[ttruscott]

1. GOD created all the spirits in HIS image.
2. HE asked us all to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD or to reject HIS claims.
3. WE all chose by a free will with an equal ability and opportunity to choose ...

A few question (I'm going to refer to "individuals" instead of "spirits", I don't think that changes anything in the central issue).

HE asked us all to choose to accept HIS claims to be our GOD ...

a) How was this choice presented?

• It seems to me there must have been more to the choice than recognize the Creator as being at the origin of life; this is just a statement of fact that really cannot be contended (its rather like someone claming to be one's biological father, something a simple DNA test would settle, then the child is obliged to recognize the fact.

So my question in real terms what was the choice and how was this choice presented?

Of course you are right - my phrasing was not adequate to the event.

I think that it all started with the teaching of the gospel tuned for a pre-sin, that is, ingenious innocent, society. Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. can certainly be read this way since it has not been fulfilled on earth as the nature of the aorist implies, even if it is not the preferred interpretation of orthodoxy.

I understand that the phrase has been proclaimed is couched in a tense as an action that started in the past and has been repeated many times and will be repeated into the future. I suggest that the gospel holds all the pertinent claims for a pre-sin society to choose to put their faith in these claims of YHWH's deity and in the claim of the dangers of rejecting HIS deity as well as HIS promise of election to heaven to be found in HIS Son for those who accepted HIS deity or to reject them.

This would be have been couched in the manner of promises and warnings, not in the manner that we as sinners hear the (same) message now.

Of course this in no way reflects ones LOYALTY and love of that one. Satan himself recognizes God as the (his) creator but he (Satan) is rebellious and disloyal and has no love or respect for God.

I personally have never been able to understand how anyone could know and accept the Deity of GOD and then still rebell to HIS face.

But rebelling against HIS unproven claims, that seems reasonable to me. Since I believe that every sinner chose by their free will to rebel, and no one is created (born) under the influence of another's sin by any means, I believe this applies to Satan also. By his free will he put his faith in the idea that YHWH's claims in the gospel were lies: there is no sin or evil, HE is not a GOD with power over heaven and hell, he is a liar and therefore the lowest among all, etc etc. His faith, his unroven hope, was that this was all true and so he would never have to face a righteous GOD of justice nor the consequences for his rebellion...he was not rebelling so much as as setting things right which could not have happened in the face of the truth of YHWH's deity.