Did god set up Adam and Eve to fail?

[Kenisaw]

The basic timeline in Genesis goes like this:

God creates Adam, and then creates Eden and sticks Adam in there. In Eden is a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Adam is told to leave it alone. Then god makes Eve so Adam isn't alone.

One day the happy couple decide to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their "eyes were opened" as it were.

Here's the problem I keep running into in my mind at this point - If Adam and Eve had no knowledge about good and evil, that means they couldn't have understood the consequences of their actions. Sure they knew god said they would "surely die" if they ate from that tree, but not knowing whether that is a good or bad thing (because they didn't know good from bad) there was no reason not to eat the fruit. They couldn't even know that disobeying god was a bad thing.

Didn't god set them up to fail in this scenario?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 99 by JehovahsWitness]

If someone asked me to "renounce Jesus" I would disobey based on the premise that I believe that I am being asked to do something that is wrong, the issue therefore would thus be a moral one.

I'd like to ask you a question.

Please explain how "renouncing Jesus" is a morally wrong act?

[wiploc]

...

You use this example to illustrate the situation of Adam and Eve, so it seems you are suggesting that far from being ignorant of the meaning of the instruction or what God expected them to do, Adam and Eve's response was a moral one,

I repudiate everything you tried to put in my mouth in this post.

a deliberate and informed act of defiance of the authorative body.

Here you do touch on my point.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood what you are trying to say.

My point: I don't know why you assume that your god is an authority. I don't know why you think Eve should have thought he was an authority.

Why do you think he is an authority? Why, if they did understand his command, should they have obeyed it?

[wiploc]

Maybe A&E just forgot the warning after so much time, or saw the serpent munching on it.

Doubt and disobedience are sins. Before she disobeyed by eating the apple, Eve doubted the gods. She entertained the serpent's argument that the gods, when they forbade the eating of apples, didn't have her best interests in mind. That doubt was the first sin.

Given that the serpent was actively advising her not to obey the gods' instruction not to eat the apple, you're not going to be able to sell the idea that she had forgotten the instruction.

That dog won't hunt.

[JehovahsWitness]

a deliberate and informed act of defiance of the authorative body.

Here you do touch on my point.

My point: [...] I don't know why you think Eve should have thought he was an authority.

[...] Why, if they did understand his command, should they have obeyed it?

Well first and foremost we need to settle the issue of whether they understood the command:

• You have already confirmed they did indeed understand the words and above you imply you point is indeed connected with the idea of "a deliberate and informed defiance" is it possible to make a deliberate and informed defiance if you are ignorant of the issues and indeed ignorant of what defiance is? Would you not need to know what an authority and how such a notion impacted on your life before you could "defy" it? Would you not need to know you yourself presently exist in a subordinate position in relation to said authority in order to subsequently decide you did not like that order, and subsequently chooee to defy?

If the answer to the above is YES we can put to bed any notion of them "not understanding", whether that be not understanding the actual command (the words) or what was expected of them. Do you agree? If not could you explain in words why?

They didn't know that being told not to do something means you aren't supposed to do it.

Emphasis MINE.


JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 104 by JehovahsWitness]

Sure they understood the command - don't eat this fruit.

But try to explain to anyone why eating one fruit is bad and every other is OK. There is nothing immoral about one fruit over another.

THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG EATING SOMETHING,

How would this work on you, much less two people who were created as adults with no background or experience.

They didn't even know what wrong or sin was, but you expect us to believe they committed it willfully.

Please explain to us how someone can perform an action like eating, that is not a sin, have eating be a sin, without knowing what sin was, or understanding any consequences.

It's like God saying to you, "of all the TV shows you may watch, except of the "Iron Chef," if you watch of the "Iron Chef," you will surely churicle."

But, he doesn't tell you, I will introduce substannilit into the Earth, and all your children and generations will substannilit.

[wiploc]

Well first and foremost we need to settle the issue of whether they understood the command:

Then let's just stipulate it. For the sake of this argument, we assume that they did understand the words.

You have already confirmed they did indeed understand the words and above you imply you point is indeed connected with the idea of "a deliberate and informed defiance"

I don't remember saying that, or anything about defiance. I don't know why you want to stick words in my mouth.

Nonetheless, I think we have some conflict of writing styles that is keeping us from getting to the meat of the issue. So let me stipulate that ... shucks, I dunno. If I tell you to stand on your head, and you don't do it, have you "defied" me? Or just ignored me? I have no authority over you, right? So I'm not sure defiance comes into it.

Nonetheless, if you want defiance to be involved, if that's important to the point you intend to make, I'll tentatively stipulate to defiance.

But if you try to infer the gods' authority from the kids defying that "authority," then I will withdraw that stipulation.

is it possible to make a deliberate and informed defiance if you are ignorant of the issues and indeed ignorant of what defiance is?

I don't see that the Jehovah trio had any more authority over Eve than the serpent did. Or than I have over you. That's my point. You want to address that point? Why should anyone do what gods say? What would be the point of obeying gods? How would that be good? Why not do what the serpent wanted? Why not obey every random stranger if you're going to obey every random god? If Satan created the earth, would we have to do what Satan wanted?

Would you not need to know what an authority and how such a notion impacted on your life before you could "defy" it? Would you not need to know you yourself presently exist in a subordinate position in relation to said authority in order to subsequently decide you did not like that order, and subsequently chooee to defy? [/list]

If the answer to the above is YES we can put to bed any notion of them "not understanding", whether that be not understanding the actual command (the words) or what was expected of them. Do you agree? If not could you explain in words why?

Don't keep coming up with new words that the kids had to define. Push past all that and just tell me why you think they ought to have obeyed the gods. What would be good about that? What would be bad about disobeying?

They didn't know that being told not to do something means you aren't supposed to do it.

Emphasis MINE.
JW

Yes, I've been clear from the beginning. This is what I think the issue is. Assume they knew every word in the dictionary. Assume they heard clearly and understood the instructions. Tell me why, then, they ought to have obeyed those instructions. What gave the gods authority to impose their will on Eve?

[JehovahsWitness]

Well first and foremost we need to settle the issue of whether they understood the command:

Then let's just stipulate it. For the sake of this argument, we assume that they did understand the words.

Was that your assumption from the go ge? I don't want to pressure you to say anything you dont want to say. You already confirmed they understood the words., but what I am trying to get you to clarify is do you think they understood that God expected them not to touch the tree.

They didn't know that being told not to do something means you aren't supposed to do it.

Emphasis MINE.

[tam]

Peace to you wiploc.

[Replying to post 106 by wiploc]

What gave the gods authority to impose their will on Eve?

Because it was HIS garden. HIS house.

Are you suggesting that the owner of a house does not have the right to make rules in that house; or that guests invited into that house do not have an obligation to respect those rules? Are you suggesting that you could not tell a guest you have invited into your home, that a certain room (or item) is off-limits to them?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't see that the Jehovah trio had any more authority over Eve than the serpent did. Or than I have over you. That's my point. You want to address that point?

No, not really.

Firstly I don't know who or what a "Jehovah trio" is and secondly the I am seeking clarification on is your original point about their supposed ignorance ("they did not know") on some level (yet to be explained). Your own feelings about Jehovah (God's) authority in the matter is irrelevant, since I presume you were not there to play a part in the narrative, but I AM interested in whether you see Adam and Eve as understanding there was an issue of authority in play and if so to what degree.


JW

TO DEFY

1. openly resist or refuse to obey.
2. appear to be challenging (someone) to do or prove something

[wiploc]

what I am trying to get you to clarify is do you think they understood that God expected them not to touch the tree.

You can't understand something that isn't true. The gods in this story are omniscient; they know everything that will happen; they know the kids will touch the tree.

If the gods didn't want them to touch the tree, they'd have started us off with Solomon and Ruth rather than Adam and Eve, or they'd have put the tree on Mars, or made the fruit unattractive, or been less persuasive when they took the form of the serpent, or made it cloudy that day, or otherwise arranged it so things worked out differently.

But, I grant you this: The gods forbade touching the tree, and the kids knew that. They just didn't know that disobeying gods is wrong. Because, see, they didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore it was impossible for them to know that they shouldn't do what is forbidden by random gods.

And, even with my knowledge of good and evil, I still don't know why we should give gods credence. What would be the point of obeying gods?