Jehovah's Witnesses and Jephthah's daughter

[Justin108]

What exactly happened to Jephthah's daughter according to Jehovah's Witnesses?

Reading Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation in the link below,
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -daughter/

....it seems as though they believe Jephthah's daughter, instead of being sacrificed as a burnt offering, simply spent the rest of her life in service to God.

Judges 11 seems very clear on this, however.

Judges 11:30 Then Jephʹthah made a vowg to Jehovah and said: “If you give the Amʹmonites into my hand, 31 then whoever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Amʹmonites will become Jehovah’s, and I will offer that one up as a burnt offering.�

Judges 11:34 Finally Jephʹthah came to his home in Mizʹpah, and look! his daughter was coming out to meet him, playing the tambourine and dancing!

Judges 11:39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, after which he carried out the vow he had made regarding her.


Does Judges 11 not clearly state that Jephʹthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering?

[Justin108]

NWT translated the bible we didn't write it, we believe God is the author of the bible.

I never said the NWT wrote the Bible. I said the Jehovah's Witnesses wrote the translation. That is, they documented the translation by writing down letters in a book.

Did Jephthah kill his daughter
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 389#900389

Yes. Thank you. I already responded to this in post 5.

Various Commentaries
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 478#900478

Responded to in post 8.

Burnt Offering: Literal or Methaphoric
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 493#900493]

And this link just takes me back to the first page of my OP... good job.


So are you going to actually respond to my rebuttals? Or are you just going to repeatedly link me to old comments, all of which I already responded to?

[marco]

What exactly happened to Jephthah's daughter according to Jehovah's Witnesses?

I always took it that she was killed. However I have sympathy with an interpretation that suggests the issue if over her virginity. She asks to go with her friends to mourn the situation that she will never lose her virginity. One would have thought her impending ritual sacrifice would be a more pressing worry.

After the statement of sacrifice we are told she never knew a man. This would be an absurdly unnecessary statement if she were dead but a perfectly understandable one if the issue is her virginity. The tale of girls going to her shrine to commend her makes more sense if she is there.

At the very least there is enough to suggest that a brutal sacrifice did not take place.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 21 by Justin108]

Thank you for pointing out the link, duly corrected.

It's not always easy to keep track, the link I intended was where I wrote about the use of metaphor.


Regards

JW

[Justin108]

I have things I'd like to ask:
2) Why is Jephtha distraught when he sees his daughter coming out of his home?

Because no doubt, he understood the impact the vow, if carried out would have on both their lives. In Israel at that time having offspring was central to their culture, indeed in ancient they had no word for "bachelor" (much less for bachelorette), yet effectively Jephthah's vow meant his daughter would not marry.
The narrative emphasises that Jephtah had but one child, meaning his family name would end with her. In Israel at that time the continuation of the family name was incredibly important as it constituted not only that a person would be remembered it more importantly that the land considered God go en would stay in the family.

Who did he expect would come out the house? If Jephthah intended for an only-metaphorical burnt offering from the start, involving giving up the person to lifelong servitude to God, then clearly Jephthah expected a living person to leave the house. Who else did he expect to leave the house if not his daughter? And if he expected only his daughter to leave the house, why is he so distraught all of a sudden?

Unless you suggest that, had it been an animal leaving his house, it would send the animal to... spend the rest of its life a virgin in service to God?

In summary,
- If Jephthah intended the "burnt offering" to refer to a lifelong of servitude, then this would only apply to humans
- If it did only apply to humans, how many candidates are there other than his daughter? Was Jephthah still married at this point? Was he hoping his wife would step out the house?
- If it did not only apply to humans, are we then to believe that animals would be expected to spend the rest of their lives as virgins in service to God?

The narrative only makes sense if we interpret the "burnt offering" as literal. He expected an animal to leave his house, at which point he will sacrifice the animal as a burnt offering. Unfortunately his daughter left the house, forcing him to sacrifice her instead. This explains why he's distraught, why she's a virgin for the rest of her life, why she mourns this, and most importantly, it explains why the text says "burnt offering" as opposed to "a lifelong of servitude". It explains everything. You just don't like this interpretation and so you dismiss it.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 17 by onewithhim]

I wonder if you opposers of what JW and I are saying actually READ our posts.

So I somehow quoted and discussed JW's partial quote of Gill's exposition without actually reading what JW wrote?

I honestly don't understand this accusation. I of course read what I quote and respond to. I wouldn't be ABLE to respond if I didn't.

It is clear, from references even to other versions of the Bible AND other Bible commentaries, that Jepthah's daughter was not literally burned up. Yet you fight against that fact.

No, I'm pointing out that what you call a 'fact' is not so, that this is in dispute. It's not settled. There are Bible translations, such as the NET Bible, where it says that the daughter died.
So I, as a non-believer, don't know what to believe. It could be that the daughter died, or that the daughter survived. My posts have to do with thinking of this in terms of story structure, its impact. I have already asked what the daughter surviving does in terms of impact of the story's moral lesson, which from what I have been told is something along the lines of "Don't be rash, don't make stupid promises".

I will stand with Jehovah and His witnesses on this, and with commentaries that have been presented from other Bible scholars

What about the other commentaries where she died?

Why would women literally lament a person by going to the temple? Couldn't they be sad for her without going there, if she was literally dead?

Why do people do all sorts of things? Why do people go to a building to pray to God once a week, if God is omnipresent?

What could be the purpose of travelling there to be sad for her?

What could be the purpose of travelling to a city in the Middle East and walking (what is it 3, or 7 times?) around a big black box, and doing other activities?
I'm not the one surprised that humans sometimes do things that aren't completely logical.

Obviously they were going there to encourage her and satisfy their own needs to see their friend.

Or to pay homage to her, for her courage in doing as her father promised to God, reckless though it was (not my view, but how I imagine they would have viewed it).

What I want to ask you is this: is there any chance, any at all, in your mind, that the daughter died? That she actually was sacrificed?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 17 by onewithhim]

I wonder if you opposers of what JW and I are saying actually READ our posts.

So I somehow quoted and discussed JW's partial quote of Gill's exposition without actually reading what JW wrote?

I honestly don't understand this accusation. I of course read what I quote and respond to. I wouldn't be ABLE to respond if I didn't.

It is clear, from references even to other versions of the Bible AND other Bible commentaries, that Jepthah's daughter was not literally burned up. Yet you fight against that fact.

No, I'm pointing out that what you call a 'fact' is not so, that this is in dispute. It's not settled. There are Bible translations, such as the NET Bible, where it says that the daughter died.
So I, as a non-believer, don't know what to believe. It could be that the daughter died, or that the daughter survived. My posts have to do with thinking of this in terms of story structure, its impact. I have already asked what the daughter surviving does in terms of impact of the story's moral lesson, which from what I have been told is something along the lines of "Don't be rash, don't make stupid promises".

I will stand with Jehovah and His witnesses on this, and with commentaries that have been presented from other Bible scholars

What about the other commentaries where she died?

Why would women literally lament a person by going to the temple? Couldn't they be sad for her without going there, if she was literally dead?

Why do people do all sorts of things? Why do people go to a building to pray to God once a week, if God is omnipresent?

What could be the purpose of travelling there to be sad for her?

What could be the purpose of travelling to a city in the Middle East and walking (what is it 3, or 7 times?) around a big black box, and doing other activities?
I'm not the one surprised that humans sometimes do things that aren't completely logical.

Obviously they were going there to encourage her and satisfy their own needs to see their friend.

Or to pay homage to her, for her courage in doing as her father promised to God, reckless though it was (not my view, but how I imagine they would have viewed it).

What I want to ask you is this: is there any chance, any at all, in your mind, that the daughter died? That she actually was sacrificed?

Thank you for a thoughtful, reasonable response to my posts. To answer your question: No, I do not think that there is any chance that the daughter actually died. It doesn't harmonize with so many other passages, about what God is like and what He expects of His people, and also the details of the account when scrutinized.

[onewithhim]

It's funny you haven't noticed that JWs use other versions besides the NWT almost consistently here.

Why would they? The only reason to ever use a different translation is if you doubt the one you normally use.


___________________________________________________________________

Justin, the reason we use different translations is that they AGREE with what the NWT says about a subject under discussion. We quote them largely because other people here would respect those other versions more than the NWT.

We would use the International Version that you referred to, that says the women mourned Jepthah's daughter, because they did indeed mourn her loss of the possibility of ever marrying. As was pointed out, an Israelite woman would have her heart set on marriage and having children. This was taken from the daughter because she chose to honor her father's vow (which she didn't have to do). Giving up marriage and children, to Israelite women, was something very much worth mourning.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 26 by onewithhim]

To answer your question

I asked several questions...

Thank you for a thoughtful, reasonable response to my posts.

You're welcome. I would like an apology though for the accusation that I don't read posts.

No, I do not think that there is any chance that the daughter actually died.

No chance? So to be clear, onewithhim is on the record as saying that there is a ZERO chance that Jephtha's daughter died as a result of her father's vow, that she backs up her belief by citing commentaries, Bible translations and what she thinks are clear cut laws from God.
What I find strange about that is that your justification ignores what I have already pointed out. In fact, user JW outright quote-mined Gill's exposition in an attempt to support his (and your) position on this topic.
What I think would be more accurate of you to say is that you honestly think and believe that the daughter did not die, due to reason X Y and Z.
What would be totally inaccurate would be to say there is NO chance, as if to say that the contention from others that she did die has no justification AT ALL.

Both sides of this debate have their strong points.

[brianbbs67]

I still beleive she died. But, remember , God never asked for or required such a thing and is silent in this whole account.(His silence should be deafening) I think it is a cautionary tale about making promises to God He did not ask for or require. People have killed in His name since the beginning . Most times, not at His request. Why did it not occur to Jephthah to pray to the Lord about this and be released from his unwise promise? Since I doubt he was bound by it. I think this story shows what people will do in the name of God without God's approval or request. Since Jep never tries to appeal to God, he must have wanted it this way, for some reason. (read selfish here)

[onewithhim]

I still beleive she died. But, remember , God never asked for or required such a thing and is silent in this whole account.(His silence should be deafening)

His silence is deafening because Jepthah's daughter didn't die and no one centuries ago would have thought she did. I guess people in ancient times knew God better than they do today. He never would have countenanced a literal burnt sacrifice to Himself.

I agree that Jepthah was rash and made a stupid vow. I agree that it behooves us to think very deeply before we make a vow.