Was the Pope wrong?

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Elijah John
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Was the Pope wrong?

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Divine Insight
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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

Elijah John wrote: In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?
Isn't this ultimately dependent upon how much arrogance we attribute to Christianity?

I mean, don't Christian theists hold that all goodness, truth, and beauty comes from their God? If they hold this to be true, then how could Pope John Paul the II possibly be wrong?

They can't allow that any goodness, truth or beauty could come from any source other than the Christian God.

So this amounts to nothing short of the position of arrogance of Christian theology.

That's it. Period.
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Elijah John
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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

Divine Insight wrote:
Elijah John wrote: In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?
Isn't this ultimately dependent upon how much arrogance we attribute to Christianity?

I mean, don't Christian theists hold that all goodness, truth, and beauty comes from their God? If they hold this to be true, then how could Pope John Paul the II possibly be wrong?

They can't allow that any goodness, truth or beauty could come from any source other than the Christian God.

So this amounts to nothing short of the position of arrogance of Christian theology.

That's it. Period.
"Their God" is the God, if there is only one God. The point I think the Pope is making is that God works through all ethical religions, not just Christianity. To varying degrees, yes, but He does work in the others as well.

Don't you think the Pope deserves some credit for this, instead of labeling his position as "arrogant"? Especially in light of the fact that many Fundamentalists would probably deny that God works in other religions...at all. John 14.6 and all that.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Divine Insight
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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #4

Post by Divine Insight »

Elijah John wrote: Don't you think the Pope deserves some credit for this, instead of labeling his position as "arrogant"?
I'm not suggesting that the Pope is arrogant. It's the theology that is arrogant. The Pope is merely doing the best he can with what he has to work with.
Elijah John wrote: "Their God" is the God, if there is only one God. The point I think the Pope is making is that God works through all ethical religions, not just Christianity. To varying degrees, yes, but He does work in the others as well.
I actually agree with the Fundamentalists below on this issue.
Elijah John wrote: Especially in light of the fact that many Fundamentalists would probably deny that God works in other religions...at all. John 14.6 and all that.
I agree with the Fundy's

And not only because of John 14:6, but because of the whole "Jealous God" aspect of the Old Testament, from "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me", to all the rest of this God's commandments and directives.

How could this God go off and loan goodness, truth and beauty to other religions that don't recognize these specific commandments and directives?

I can see where the Pope was trying to allow for other religions to somehow have something to do with God. And I agree with the basic idea that if we're going to demand that all goodness, truth and beauty can only come from God, then we have no choice but to allow that goodness, truth and beauty found in other religions would then necessarily need to have come from God.

But in the end this appears to totally ignore the jealous nature of the Biblical God. There is no room for other religions to represent the Biblical God. And of course this was carried over to Jesus in the New Testament as you point out with John 14:6

No room for anyone other than Jesus and Yahweh to be God.

And in Christianity even Yahweh has to take a back seat to Jesus. This is why the Trinity was invented so that Jesus and Yahweh could be claimed to be the same God.
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Post #5

Post by brianbbs67 »

I would point back to the story of Balak and Baalam. It is clear form reading the story, both Isreal and the Moabites(Lots offspring with his daughters) worshipped God. God just favored Isreal at this point. Which is what Balam was trying to get king Balak to understand. Kinda reminds me of Dr. Suess. King Balak says, "curse them". Balam says" did you not see me talking to God over there, and what He said. I can not curse them in house, I can not curse them with a mouse. I can not curse them here or there. I can not curse them any where."

It seems the Lord has/had deals with all peoples, at some point, with different rules. He even called Nebacanezzar his servant.

In summary, i think the Pope was right this time. I am not papal supporter.

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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #6

Post by marco »

Elijah John wrote: In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?

The premise is that truth emanates from the Holy Spirit and if this is so then it is axiomatic that what is "beautiful, true and good" is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Whether one would find something beautiful, good and true in some other religion is an interesting point. If the religion is false, can goodness and truth grow there?

I suppose what John Paul was saying is that we should be grateful for goodness and truth wherever it hides. By praising it, encouraging it, we draw closer to each other.
I don't think he was wrong. I once met the man, spoke to him briefly and was much impressed by his obvious goodness. It says much for him that he was ready to see good in other faiths rather than to offer condemnation. Surely not the mark of an anti-Christ!

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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #7

Post by Elijah John »

marco wrote:
Elijah John wrote: In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?

The premise is that truth emanates from the Holy Spirit and if this is so then it is axiomatic that what is "beautiful, true and good" is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Whether one would find something beautiful, good and true in some other religion is an interesting point. If the religion is false, can goodness and truth grow there?

I suppose what John Paul was saying is that we should be grateful for goodness and truth wherever it hides. By praising it, encouraging it, we draw closer to each other.
I don't think he was wrong. I once met the man, spoke to him briefly and was much impressed by his obvious goodness. It says much for him that he was ready to see good in other faiths rather than to offer condemnation. Surely not the mark of an anti-Christ!
I agree with most of your post here, Marco. But I would like to address the bolded portion.

The underlying assumption of which seems to be that a given religion is either true or false in it's entirety. I have found no such religion on the face of the earth.

But I have seen the fruits of the Holy Spirit in Muslims and Jews as well in Christians, agnostics and atheists too. This sure seems to suggest the Pope was right.

And if not, I sure would like to hear from some Evangelicals how they account for what is good, beautiful and true in other religions, and other religous people. Given that the fruits of the Holy Spirit are enumerated by Paul and all.

Seems "Bible believing" Evangelicals do not have monopoly on those fruits, and the Spirit, like the wind, cannot be confined and goes where he will.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ttruscott
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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #8

Post by ttruscott »

marco wrote:It says much for him that he was ready to see good in other faiths rather than to offer condemnation.
Is the point not rather than their having good in them, all their good is in fact from YHWH and without HIS grace (sun and rain) upon them there would be no good in them at all?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

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Post by dianaiad »

Divine Insight wrote:
Elijah John wrote: In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?
Isn't this ultimately dependent upon how much arrogance we attribute to Christianity?

I mean, don't Christian theists hold that all goodness, truth, and beauty comes from their God? If they hold this to be true, then how could Pope John Paul the II possibly be wrong?

They can't allow that any goodness, truth or beauty could come from any source other than the Christian God.

So this amounts to nothing short of the position of arrogance of Christian theology.

That's it. Period.
Actually, the idea seems to be that all goodness, truth and beauty comes from God. Not the 'Christian God,' as if there were more than one, but GOD. Singular. If other religions have different ideas about Him...it's still Him they have different ideas about.

In this case, the Pope is correct.

Consider the number of religions and non-religious systems that are based upon the 'do unto others as you would have others do unto you." MOST of them incorporate that one into their ethical/moral systems, yes?

How logical is it to claim that a Hindu who believes this to be a 'good, true and beautiful thing" should be wrong about that because he might be wrong about other things? If a Buddhist or a Wiccan or a Catholic or an Anglican or a Muslim or a Mithraeist or a Sikh go by this principle, are they wrong to do so, and is their doing so somehow 'bad, false and ugly' because they have other beliefs that differ from those who have disparate ideas about God?

If YOU follow the Golden Rule, would anybody who disagrees with your views about religion be doing something bad, false and ugly if they too followed that rule?

DI, either there is a god or there isn't. Perhaps there's more than one...in which case either there is at least one god or there aren't any. Diety's existence isn't affected by whether you or I agree about what He/She/They are like, and a good, true and beautiful thing is good, true and beautiful no matter where it is found. Good, true and beautiful things are in and of themselves thus, no matter what surrounds them...or what other people think.

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Re: Was the Pope wrong?

Post #10

Post by liamconnor »

Elijah John wrote: In his book Crossing the Threshhold of Hope, Pope John Paul the II taught that "whatever is good, beautiful and true" in other religions is also from the Holy Spirit". (paraphrasing JPII from memory).

For debate, was John Paul the Second wrong with this teaching? If so, how do you account for what is "good, beautiful and true" in other religions?
If by the H.S. John Paul meant simply God, then no. Christian theology has long since recognized that goodness in non-redeemed men exists.

There is, of course, another understanding of H.S., but I doubt the Pope meant that.

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