MaryAnn, Ginger, the IRS, Beliefs, Choices & Consequence

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
mrmufin
Scholar
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:58 pm
Location: 18042

MaryAnn, Ginger, the IRS, Beliefs, Choices & Consequence

Post #1

Post by mrmufin »

I've been reading and participating in various online religious debate forums for a few years now, and many times I've heard Christians state, in one form or another, that we non-Christians have a "choice" in whether or not to believe in God, the Bible, and the veracity of scriptures. Statements of this type often stem from discussions about omnipotence and free will and eternity in either heaven or hell. Try as I might, I'm unable to fathom that my sincerely held beliefs (or lack thereof) are at all chosen. To put some boundaries on what beliefs and choices are, I'll offer their respective definitions upfront, as provided by Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus:

belief: 1 conviction that certain things are true 2 religious faith 3 trust or confidence 4 creed or doctrine 5 an opinion; expectation; judgement

choice: 1 a choosing; selection 2 the right or power to choose 3 a person or thing chosen 4 the best part 5 a variety from which to choose 6 an alternative

I'll present some examples of what I would and would not regard as beliefs, as well as why I regard them as such, in an attempt to clarify my position and try to avoid tangential issues about whether or not a given proposition qualifies as a belief.

I believe that MaryAnn is more attractive than Ginger. This is a belief; it conforms with the fifth definition of belief provided above as an opinion and judgement. It also defies independent and immediate verification until such time as an objective means of evaluating attractiveness is established.

I believe that my car will start the next time I need to drive somewhere, even though it's been running kinda crappy lately. This qualifies as a belief since it is a statement of confidence about a future event.

In contrast, I do not need to believe that the New York Mets won the 1986 World Series. The games are over, the scores are final, their win is a fact and remains as such regardless of religious affiliation, political party, sexual orientation or any amount of love for the Boston Red Sox. Nor do I need to believe that my car started successfully last Thursday; no confidence, trust, conviction, faith, doctrine or opinion is required.

I'm not suggesting that beliefs are either innate nor final, but changing sincerely held beliefs requires additional compelling data. For example, if Sherwood Schwartz released some old episodes of Gilligan's Island which portray MaryAnn as a vindictive, back-stabbing bitch and Ginger as a non-pretentious, considerate gal with a deep interest in mathematics and a love of Beethoven's piano concertos, my belief about who is more attractive may very well change. (As well, that change in belief would be fully compatible with my fetish for green-eyed redheads. ;-) )

What constitutes a choice can get a bit more difficult since some choices might have considerable consequences. If I go to Baskin-Robbins, I can choose from a variety of ice cream flavors which I find equally appealing (coffee, strawberry cheesecake, mint chocolate chip, orange cream) as well as some which I find less appealing (vanilla, chocolate, bublegum) with little or no negative consequence. As the potential for negative consequences increases for a particular selection, I consider my choice in a given matter to be diminished. For example, I can "choose" not to file a tax return with the IRS, but doing so means weighing the potential consequences against the potential gain by not filing. By my measure, I regard the penalties for not filing as having a greater negative consequence than filing, and Congress and the IRS have stacked the deck in such a fashion as to make a highly persuasive case for "choosing" to file tax returns in a timely fashion.

As well, there are some things which I definitely did not choose: my eye color, my sexual orientation, my skin tone, etc.

Based on its scriptural depictions, as well as the statements of believers in such, hell doesn't sound like a very fun place. Per the statements made by most Christians, hell is my ultimate destiny due to my lack of belief in a particular god. I don't make it into heaven just by being a nice guy; I need to choose Christ as my savior, yada yada yada. And there's the rub: I don't think I can choose what I sincerely believe. I may have all the alleged free will in the Universe, but try as I might, I'm as unable to "choose to believe" in a particular god as I am unable to choose to believe that Ginger is more attractive than MaryAnn.

So here's the question: Are beliefs cognitive or volitional functions? My position, as I've attempted to demonstrate, is that sincere beliefs are not volitional. If your position is that beliefs are chosen, I'd certainly appreciate a demonstration or two to support your claim.

For us non-Christians, our beliefs are not necessarily final. However, changing those beliefs requires additional compelling data; without such, we are destined to eternity in hell as a result of unconvincing evidence. Should not an all-powerful god have the capacity to provide sufficiently compelling evidence to alter my beliefs? Or has God, like Congress and the IRS, stacked the deck in advance against me?

Regards,
mrmufin
Historically, bad science has been corrected by better science, not economists, clergy, or corporate interference.

Nameless

Gratitude?

Post #21

Post by Nameless »

I gave your questions thought and time, now I hear echoes. Didn't your mothers at least teach you to say thank you in a situation such as this, especially if you are no longer going to answer? How rude! Oh well.. good luck...

User avatar
ST88
Site Supporter
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:38 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Gratitude?

Post #22

Post by ST88 »

Nameless wrote:I gave your questions thought and time, now I hear echoes. Didn't your mothers at least teach you to say thank you in a situation such as this, especially if you are no longer going to answer? How rude! Oh well.. good luck...
Nameless:

Please do not assume that responses must be given within a certain amount of time or at all. While a vital part of our lives, DC&R is not the only part of our lives.

Furthermore, please do not use the forums themselves for personal attacks. Attack -- if you must -- rhetoric, analysis, and philosophy. But please treat other members with respect.

Nameless

Re: Gratitude?

Post #23

Post by Nameless »

ST88 wrote:Furthermore, please do not use the forums themselves for personal attacks. Attack -- if you must -- rhetoric, analysis, and philosophy. But please treat other members with respect
First, I assumed nothing but the rudeness of the silence.
Oh please!! Whom did I attack and how?? Give me a break. Respect, Mr. Niceness Monitor, means not suddenly leaving a conversation in the middle without a word. That is simply 'rude'. If I cannot even point that out without the control freaks jumping out waving their little fingers, I suspect I mght be in the wrong place, when 'Truth' becomes subservient to "niceness" and 'political correctness'!

User avatar
mrmufin
Scholar
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:58 pm
Location: 18042

Re: MaryAnn, Ginger, the IRS, Beliefs, Choices & Consequ

Post #24

Post by mrmufin »

Nameless wrote:You are still building your house on sand. Any police officer can tell you of the ten eyewitnesses with ten different stories.
Any police officer relies on physical evidence in addition to witness testimony. If police find a body with six gunshot wounds, the testimony of a witness who said the victim was stabbed will likely be dismissed. The police also assume that physical evidence, such as DNA, security camera monitors, etc., does not have the means nor the motive to misrepresent itself.
Nameless wrote:You choose what to believe. You CHOOSE data that is consistant with your memories.
Yeah. And the police choose data that is consistent with their memories of a crime that they did not witness?
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote:I can choose to open my eyes, but I do not get to choose what I see, regardless of the accuracy of my vision. I may choose to touch an object, but have no choice as to whether the sensation will be cold, sticky, wet, scalding, etc.
Perhaps you dont make a conscious choice to BELIEVE the evidence of your senses, but it is still all perfectly subjective.
No, the credibility of my senses is established --to an extent-- by independent evaluation. If my perception of events is consistent with the perception of events by anomometers, security cameras, thermometers and other sources which have no apparent capacity to misrepresent themselves, why should I doubt my senses?
Nameless wrote:All sensory data exists solely in your mind.
Really? Then how do you account for the consistencey of the false positives? For example, millions of people witnessed the 1986 World Series and very few, if any, dispute the outcome. If this reality existed only in our minds, why the consistency of our memories? Perhaps the Mets really did win the Series in a reality that existed independent of our minds?
Nameless wrote:Your finger touches an information wave, your consciousness collapses that wave into the reality that you are 'seeking' IN YOUR MIND is where that 'reality' exists.
What is an information wave and is that wave also a figment of my imagination?
Nameless wrote:Your 'eyewitnesses' are figments of your 'imagination', as is your car. There IS no "out there"! It is an 'illusion' that can be 'mastered', or 'believed', but not both.
Yeah, it's all an illusion. Everything except for my imagination?
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote: Along the way, I'm accumulating data from my senses in the form of memories and knowledge. Whether or not this data is consistent with data from alternate sources gives me a degree of confidence in the integrity of my senses.
Your senses have no more 'integrity' than a board game that you make up as you go.
How would you go about demonstrating my alleged lack of sensory integrity?
Nameless wrote:Again, for a touch of science regarding the 'integrity' of you senses, please see 'my' book quote above.
'Your' book quote above has been edited. Perhaps you could repost it?
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote:I, uh, think the line would be between the conscious and subconscious functions, and I think that line is drawn at the capacity to control an event.
So, uh, you would be unconscious of the sun burning in the sky because you cannot control it?
No, I would be conscious of the sun "burning in the sky" because of its impact on my senses. I can see the sun and I can feel its heat. This sensory data is consistent with the sensory data of my neighbors, as well as my camera and thermometer. What I wouldnot be able to control is whether or not I opened my eyes and saw the sun.
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote: I can consciously take measures toward slowing down my heart rate, but I can not turn it off.
What is your point. There are those who can, with practice. I used to be able to produce undetectable heartbeat through conciously fibrilating my heart. Big deal. So what does that prove? Small consciousness can be 'expanded' with practice.
The expansion of consciousness has limits. Stop your heart for too long by any means, and resussication becomes impossible, regardless of belief.

Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote: I might also entertain the notion that what I believed to be true was wrong.
OK, this should, if you are evolving as a human being, be a regular occurrence in your life.
Only if my beliefs are regularly wrong.
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote:..but let's not pretend that all of the data is immune to impartial evaluation.
Lets not pretend that there is such a thing as 'independent evaluation!
Why not?
Nameless wrote:Arent we deciding all the time what to believe, or to what extent? At one level or another?
Not really. The senses are continually experiencing their environment, which may or mat not impact beliefs.
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote:Once my belief has changed, is it possible for me to return to my previous beliefs about the other suspect without any new --and even more compelling-- evidence?
Are you arguing, also, for no responsibility for your life? Your world?
Huh? Because I believe that MaryAnn is more attractive than Ginger, and I will be holding that belief until further data convinces me to the contrary, I'm irresponsible? Or am I somehow irresponsible for regarding my car as something other than a figment of my imagination? Because I'm unable to convince myself that the moon is wholly made of green cheese or that thunder is the work of Thor says nothing of my personal responsibility.
Nameless wrote:What can you possibly hope to gain by this 'helplessness'? I can't imagine not being able or willing to believe that which you wish to believe.
I am fully able to make false statements about my beliefs, and others may regard those false statements as my sincerely held beliefs. Because I am unable to convince myself that the moon is wholly made of green cheese or that thunder is the work of Thor implies helpnesses? How?
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote:I think the very concept of choosing implies an awareness of choices.
Even not making a choice, is making a choice at the crossroads. I 'choose' to continue walking onward, even if I did not notice the crossroad. That choice was made in ignorance, as are they (almost) all.
If you did not notice the crossroads, you simply continued onward. The only decision made was to not stop, a choice which remained with or without any crossroad.
Nameless wrote:
mrmufin wrote:I am saying that whether or not I find a statement, assertion, claim convincing is not something that I can choose. I can not choose different beliefs at whim and remain sincere. I need additional data.
Jeeeeez, another fly in the ointment! Whats this about 'sincerity', now? I have found that if you 'fake' it hard enough, you'll eventually become sincere. We all do. Yeeeeesh...
Yeah, for some of us, sincerity does matter. Because I am unable to convince myself that the moon is wholly made of green cheese or that thunder is the work of Thor, what would I gain by faking it?
Nameless wrote:Do you think that an 'unconscious choice' is similar to a 'choice' made in ignorance?
No, I think that an unconscious choice is an oxymoronic statement. A choice made in ignorance is an ill-informed choice, because ignorance does not necessarily mean that the choices are not recognized.

Regards,
mrmufin

User avatar
mrmufin
Scholar
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:58 pm
Location: 18042

Re: Gratitude?

Post #25

Post by mrmufin »

Nameless wrote:I gave your questions thought and time, now I hear echoes. Didn't your mothers at least teach you to say thank you in a situation such as this, especially if you are no longer going to answer? How rude! Oh well.. good luck...
I extend my apology for not responding sooner. I have responsibilities and priorities in my life which I place at a higher value than DC & R forums. My nonparticipation should not be mistaken as rudeness nor concession, only a statement of my priorities.

Please keep any assumptions you may have about my mother to yourself.

Regards,
mrmufin

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20522
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 337 times
Contact:

Re: Gratitude?

Post #26

Post by otseng »

Nameless wrote:First, I assumed nothing but the rudeness of the silence.
Oh please!! Whom did I attack and how??
As a further note, it is against the rules to challenge decisions made by moderators in public.

12. Appeals and challenges to decisions made by moderators should not be made in public. The proper channel is to send a PM to a moderator and to discuss it directly and in private.

If you feel a moderator's action is to be questioned, do so in a PM, otherwise questioning moderators in public is against the rules.

Post Reply