WATCHTOWER: Christian Values

[JehovahsWitness]

This month's Watchtower magazine made an interesting comment on Values

"VALUES WE NEED TODAY
You may wonder, though, ‘Are Bible teachings really practical for our modern day?’ To answer, ask yourself: ‘What are the worst problems facing mankind today? Which ones are the most terrifying?’ Perhaps you think of warfare, pollution, crime, or corruption. Now consider some principles that the Bible teaches. As you do, ask yourself, ‘If people lived by these values, would the world be a better place?’

LOVE OF PEACE

“Happy are the peacemakers, since they will be called sons of God.� (Matthew 5:9) “If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men.�—Romans 12:18.

Source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018019#h=5"

QUESTION: Do you think that the Jehovah's Witnesses here have correctly interpreted Matthew 5:9?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 10 by The Tanager]

Loving ones enemies is just that. If Jesus didn't add any modifiers then we (Jehovah's Witnesses) don't presume to. We leave others (like yourself) to add the "except when ...." What exactly is point of discussing the finer detail of the sermon on the mount with someone that cannot figure out whether "Love one another" means kill them or not?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

Are you seeking peace right now with me? It doesn't seem that way to me. If I used your logic I could say, "what's the point talking about further values in the Sermon on the Mount, if you can't even get this one right," but I don't use that kind of logic. I want to seek understanding, I want to use compassion, I want to view my own thoughts with humility because of how complex reality can be at times.

The Sermon on the Mount, to me, seems to be talking at the individual level. It's not talking about wars. On the individual level I do not think we should kill out of self defense. But you brought this discussion to the societal level when talking about wars.

I don't think you are treating that broader issue in its complexity. Jesus also said to love your neighbor, right? On the surface, if you could keep your neighbor from dying and don't do so, that doesn't seem to be loving your neighbor. That's fine on its own, just as your interpretation of 'love your enemies' is fine on its own. The difficulty comes when those two principles clash. If your enemy is about to kill your neighbor, what are you to do? Hopefully the killing could be stopped without resorting to violent force. But what if it couldn't? What should the Christian think and do then?

One of those surface understandings of the values has to be dropped or nuanced. If you refrain from using force against your enemy, then your innocent neighbor will die and that doesn't seem to be loving your neighbor. If you use force against your enemy that will kill them, then that doesn't seem to be loving your enemy. I can see Christians coming down on both sides of the debate. Some will say loving your enemy does not include allowing them to damage others (as well as themselves through killing). Some will say loving your neighbor does not include causing damage to others. I don't have an answer fully worked out myself.

You may be right, but saying "Jesus said to love your enemies" is not enough because Jesus also said to love your neighbor. For a good discussion of these values, you need to take account of the bigger, more complex picture. And I think a peacemaker would seek to have compassion on those who don't agree with them on something like this. They wouldn't be condescending. Are you going to be a peacemaker right now in this situation?

[JehovahsWitness]

The Sermon on the Mount, to me, seems to be talking at the individual level. It's not talking about wars.

Wars are caused and fought by individuals all grouped together. If all individuals applied the sermon on the mount there would be no wars. Except of course for those "christians" that can't figure out what the word "love" means.

I don't have an answer fully worked out myself.

That much is clear. The Greatest two commandments is to love God and love your neighbour, may I suggest you figure out what those two things mean before tackling the finer details?

And I think a peacemaker would seek to have compassion on those who don't agree with them on something like this.

I absolutely feel for you (and all those like you) and hope you find clarity on this matter, being "confused" on such a basic christian teaching cannot be a pleasant position to be in. That said it would be amis of me not to point you to scripture or belittle the Lord's words. Jesus said and demonstarated more than enough for us to know what to do when faced with war and violence; it would be wrong for me to imply he did not.


JW

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

Thanks for 'feeling for me.' May you continue to apply the sermon on the mount to those you come into contact with in more and more conformity to Jehovah's ways.

[Realworldjack]

This month's Watchtower magazine made an interesting comment on Values

"VALUES WE NEED TODAY
You may wonder, though, ‘Are Bible teachings really practical for our modern day?’ To answer, ask yourself: ‘What are the worst problems facing mankind today? Which ones are the most terrifying?’ Perhaps you think of warfare, pollution, crime, or corruption. Now consider some principles that the Bible teaches. As you do, ask yourself, ‘If people lived by these values, would the world be a better place?’

LOVE OF PEACE

“Happy are the peacemakers, since they will be called sons of God.� (Matthew 5:9) “If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men.�—Romans 12:18.

Source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018019#h=5"

QUESTION: Do you think that the Jehovah's Witnesses here have correctly interpreted Matthew 5:9?

You may wonder, though, ‘Are Bible teachings really practical for our modern day?’

This would not be my question. Rather, my question would be, was the Bible ever intended to be practical for our modern day?

To answer, ask yourself: ‘What are the worst problems facing mankind today? Which ones are the most terrifying? Perhaps you think of warfare, pollution, crime, or corruption. ’

I really do not believe the Bible is all that concerned with these sort of things. Rather, it seems to me, the Biblical writers were more concerned with something that is far more terrifying. What would be more terrifying than any thing in the above list, would be, to stand before The Almighty God, clothed in your own effort at attempting to obtain values.

Now consider some principles that the Bible teaches. As you do, ask yourself, ‘If people lived by these values, would the world be a better place?’

I really do not believe the question should be, "IF we lived by these values", but rather, "CAN we live by these values?" This article seems to be suggesting that "IF" we live by these values, the world would be a better place. This seems to be giving folks the false impression that if we try hard enough, we can create the Kingdom ourselves. In other words, it seems to create some sort of false hope.

The bottom line here is, I do not believe the Bible is all that concerned with teaching us any sort of values. Rather, the Bible seems to be more concerned with demonstrating to us that we cannot live up to any sort of moral values, and that we should let go of our efforts towards moral values, and grab a hold of what God has done for us in Christ.

Now, I am certainly not suggesting that we should not attempt to live correctly. However, I really do not believe that we should attempt to give folks the impression that if we try hard enough, we can do it.

[JehovahsWitness]

You may wonder, though, ‘Are Bible teachings really practical for our modern day?’

This would not be my question. Rather, my question would be, was the Bible ever intended to be practical for our modern day?

To answer, ask yourself: ‘What are the worst problems facing mankind today? Which ones are the most terrifying? Perhaps you think of warfare, pollution, crime, or corruption. ’

I really do not believe the Bible is all that concerned with these sort of things.

The bible however does have much to say on these subjects and points to an end to all these things. Our personal salvation is not the main priority but relief for suffering mankind's suffering and an earth without corruption, crime, pollution etc IS something that is promised in scripture.

[JehovahsWitness]

Rather, the Bible seems to be more concerned with demonstrating to us that we cannot live up to any sort of moral values [...] I am certainly not suggesting that we should not attempt to live correctly.

What is the difference between trying to live "correctly" and trying to live by some sort of "moral value"? Seem to be just two different ways of saying the same thing to me.

[Overcomer]

Realworldjack wrote:

Rather, the Bible seems to be more concerned with demonstrating to us that we cannot live up to any sort of moral values, and that we should let go of our efforts towards moral values, and grab a hold of what God has done for us in Christ.

Now, I am certainly not suggesting that we should not attempt to live correctly. However, I really do not believe that we should attempt to give folks the impression that if we try hard enough, we can do it.

I think you hit the nail on the head with these statements. In and of ourselves, we are not capable of living as God would have us live. Therefore, when we accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, he fills us with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then works with us to overcome sin and become more like Jesus. This is the life-long process of sanctification. What we can't do in our own puny human power, we can do empowered by the Holy Spirit.

I always say that, while there are no perfect Christians on this earth, there are Christians in the process of being perfected. But the process will only be completed in the next life.

This verse comes to mind:

"He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:6).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by Overcomer]

So do you agree with rwj ... "that we should let go of our efforts towards moral values" for example to do good to others often requires "effort" , helping an elderly neighbour with her shopping, that's a morally good thing to do, but what if the shops were a little far and we were tired from work and the whole thing would take an effort?

Should we let go of the effort and stay at home instead even though she was in need because helping her would be "an effort" to do something moral, we must let go of?

Maybe I just misunderstood what it means to "let go of our efforts towards moral values"