Determinism and Pharoah

[Wootah]

The background is that pharoah gets his heart hardened from time to time during the plagues/miracles in exodus.

The issue is about free will and determinism.

I actually dont see an issue with God forcing a bad person to do something. Is there any example of God forcing a good person to do something?

[Divine Insight]

The background is that pharoah gets his heart hardened from time to time during the plagues/miracles in exodus.

The issue is about free will and determinism.

I actually dont see an issue with God forcing a bad person to do something. Is there any example of God forcing a good person to do something?

My question would be to ask what the point would be in forcing a so-called "bad person" to do something bad?

Also, why should this even be necessary?

I realize that you have focused in on the Pharaoh problem, but I have a similar problem with the need to have an evil agent influence Adam and Eve to fall from grace. For me the question then becomes, "Would mankind of have ever chosen to fall from grace on his own if not seduced into it by a lying evil demon?"

I think this is an important question because if the answer is no, then mankind would not have fallen from grace on his own. I find this to be problematic as well.

Apparently we have a Creator God who likes to start trouble where there doesn't need to be any trouble. And I find that highly questionable. Especially when I'm being asked to believe in this God in the absence of any evidence that this God even exists in the first place, and in the face of what I see as overwhelming evidence that the entire story appears to be a very problematic man-made myth.

This idea that this God causes people to do bad things (even if those people are supposedly already bad) certainly doesn't do anything to increase the credibility of these tales.

[ttruscott]

I believe you have misread the story...

At no time was Moses's the second Pharoah's good buddy nor were the Israelites anything but escaping slaves. The miracles finally caused Pharaoh to relent out of fear of YHWH but later, when Pharaoh was fearful enough to let them go, YHWH hardened his heart to continue to resist them.

In other words, HE did not make him do something he did not want to do, that is make genocidal war on the Israelites, but to do what he most wanted to do which was to kill them all.

To think that HE made him go against what he most wanted to do, ie, let them go, is an obvious misreading when HE rather had Pharoah change his mind about letting them go and to attack them which never changed. What changed was P's willingness to face the wrath of YHWH by proceeding against the Israelites so his heart being hardened obviously means GOD took away his fear of the consequences that allowed him to proceed with his strongest desire, to kill them.

As for the op, I think avery good case can be made that our free will ended when we chose to be sinners; we have no free will here on earth until it is restored to us by our rebirth into the Spirit.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

That's odd, because I seem to recall the Pharoah and Moses being raised as brothers.
History has come to the conclusion that they were not slaves.

On topic, there is a problem under free will of God forcing anyone to do anything.

If you believe the Bible, which so few people, Jews or Christians or others do - then you must believe that God caused the Pharoah to act destructively.

Though you must admit, the whole thing looks like a day dream, more than any reality.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

That's odd, because I seem to recall the Pharoah and Moses being raised as brothers.

Sorry, that is the movie. I can understand how you can be confused by modern renditions of the Scriptures. However, there is no such indication in the actual Scriptures.[/quote]

[Willum]

[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

True, it is more like uncle-nephew, though, who knows with Egyptian relations.
Bithiya (if we grant her existence) was supposedly the daughter of Thutmose I, making her of the generation of Thutmose II.

But who can say, or who can't say with myth.

Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person.[8] Rabbinic Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[9] Jerome gives 1592 BCE,[10] and James Ussher 1571 BCE as his birth year.[11][Note 2]

-Moses

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

That's odd, because I seem to recall the Pharoah and Moses being raised as brothers.
History has come to the conclusion that they were not slaves.

Read again - there were two Pharaohs...Ex 1:8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. 9 “Look,� he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.�

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

True, it is more like uncle-nephew, though, who knows with Egyptian relations.
Bithiya (if we grant her existence) was supposedly the daughter of Thutmose I, making her of the generation of Thutmose II.

But who can say, or who can't say with myth.

Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person.[8] Rabbinic Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[9] Jerome gives 1592 BCE,[10] and James Ussher 1571 BCE as his birth year.[11][Note 2]

-Moses

Well, your quote indicates that there is a difference of opinion on when Moshe' lived. Yet, you state a particular familial relationship as both a given and relevant. Why would you present it in that way? If scholars differ on such things, why should an internet poster be expected to be certain of your view and opinion of it's significance?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

That's the difficult thing when it comes to people who never existed - you can say what you want about them.

Like TS's comment. Moses was raised by an Egyptian princess, but he assures us there is no affection between them.

Heck, apparently Strabo considered Moses not Hebrew at all, but an Egyptian colonist.

Who can you believe without bias?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Bad people are already bound in chains and not acting with their free will so if God decides to make them act in a certain way makes no difference. This will be my argument. Which will be undercut if there is evidence of God restricting the free will of a good person.

It was necessary to fufil the exodus plan and in particular the final curse the passover.

I wonder if we won't see how futile the devil really was in the end. I lean towards A&E would have eaten the fruit with or without Satan being there. I dont think Satan will be responsible for most/all of the people in hell either. They put themselves there.