The background is that pharoah gets his heart hardened from time to time during the plagues/miracles in exodus.
The issue is about free will and determinism.
I actually dont see an issue with God forcing a bad person to do something. Is there any example of God forcing a good person to do something?
Determinism and Pharoah
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Wootah
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Determinism and Pharoah
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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1213
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #11What do you think God is forcing pharaoh to do? Free Jews?Wootah wrote: ...I actually dont see an issue with God forcing a bad person to do something. ...
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Overcomer
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a hardened heart
Post #12I have heard it explained this way:
The Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God knows what is in everyone's heart and knew the Pharaoh would never change. Therefore, to get things moving according to his own plan, God hardened it further.
In other words, God didn't make Pharaoh do anything he didn't want to do. God only confirmed the choice that the Pharaoh had made.
The Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God knows what is in everyone's heart and knew the Pharaoh would never change. Therefore, to get things moving according to his own plan, God hardened it further.
In other words, God didn't make Pharaoh do anything he didn't want to do. God only confirmed the choice that the Pharaoh had made.
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Willum
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Re: a hardened heart
Post #13[Replying to post 12 by Overcomer]
Except the book says that he would have let them go, except the lord hardened his heart.
So we are left with those divine scribes being wrong, or the lord harden his heart.
Except the book says that he would have let them go, except the lord hardened his heart.
So we are left with those divine scribes being wrong, or the lord harden his heart.
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Wootah
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #14To continue to be evil.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
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amortalman
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #15That pretty well sums it up, doesn't it?Apparently we have a Creator God who likes to start trouble where there doesn't need to be any trouble.
This benevolent god whose very name is love sets up his crowning creation creatures to
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1213
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #16Really? He is making pharaoh to release Jews, how is that making pharaoh to be evil?
Anyway, pharaohs heart was hardened every time he should have let the Jews go and his heart got soft when there were the plagues. So, to make pharaoh’s heart to be soft, God should have allowed the plagues go forever?
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Willum
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #17[Replying to 1213]
Perhaps it is just me, but wouldn’t it be a bonnie Exodus verse if it said: “And the Lord allowed the Pharoah’s heart to be touched, and he swore fraternal love between the two nations, so long as he ruled. Amen.�
Perhaps it is just me, but wouldn’t it be a bonnie Exodus verse if it said: “And the Lord allowed the Pharoah’s heart to be touched, and he swore fraternal love between the two nations, so long as he ruled. Amen.�
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
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Wootah
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #18Pharoah was evil (read exodus 1) and he did not want to release the Israelites. Of course as each miracle occurred he would have feared Moses and pharoah hardens his own heart the first few times.1213 wrote:Really? He is making pharaoh to release Jews, how is that making pharaoh to be evil?
Anyway, pharaohs heart was hardened every time he should have let the Jews go and his heart got soft when there were the plagues. So, to make pharaoh’s heart to be soft, God should have allowed the plagues go forever?
I just scanned exodus. God hardens pharoahs heart after the boils and even then Pharoah hardens his own heart for some of the following plagues.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Wootah
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #19A magic wand God? Lets play. At what point should God have waved his magic wand in the story?Willum wrote: [Replying to 1213]
Perhaps it is just me, but wouldn’t it be a bonnie Exodus verse if it said: “And the Lord allowed the Pharoah’s heart to be touched, and he swore fraternal love between the two nations, so long as he ruled. Amen.�
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Willum
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Re: Determinism and Pharoah
Post #20[Replying to post 18 by Wootah]
But if anytime in Exodus that begins, "And the Lord hardened the Pharoah's..."
it was replaced with, "And the Lord allowed the Pharoah’s heart to be touched, and he swore fraternal love between the two nations, so long as he ruled. Amen.�
That would be just great!
In fact, since God is timeless, perhaps if we pray really, really hard, he can change it, and we'd never even know.
In the Garden of Eden, would be nice.A magic wand God? Lets play. At what point should God have waved his magic wand in the story?
But if anytime in Exodus that begins, "And the Lord hardened the Pharoah's..."
it was replaced with, "And the Lord allowed the Pharoah’s heart to be touched, and he swore fraternal love between the two nations, so long as he ruled. Amen.�
That would be just great!
In fact, since God is timeless, perhaps if we pray really, really hard, he can change it, and we'd never even know.
