What if we put God aside?

[marco]

In one of the posts "what if" featured. Usually that solves nothing, but let's take it that the world has agreed, at least for a few years, to serve NO God, but put all former religious efforts and practices into paying attention to the poor and needy. Instead of thanking God for a robin's red breast or a daffodil's yellow bloom we would thank people for kindness and good works. We would still have our thieves, our killers and our abusers but the Law could deal with them without God's assistance, as it does now.

Would we have a better world? And why or why not?

[OnceConvinced]

I think you underestimate what some JWs live through in some countries every day.

I'm sure whatever it is, is exaggerated as with most Christians who claim persecution.

Surely God would realise that and would have given some conditions on exactly when you should draw the line at blessing your enemies

Tell me, while on Earth where was Jesus' line drawn?

Jesus stood up to the bullies.


What about when the adulteress was about to be stoned to death? He stepped in and stood up to the bullies on behalf of the adulteress.

What about when the crowds bullied Zacchaeus, calling him a sinner? Jesus stepped in there too to help him. The crowds then turned on him. What did he do? Whimper away? Certainly not.

He certainly had a lot to say to the Pharisees, didn't he? He wasn't afraid to get in their faces and even called them fools.

By going to the houses of tax collectors and other scum Jesus was thumbing his nose at the bullies. He wasn't going to buckle to their pressure.

What did Jesus do in Nazareth when the people there tried to throw him off a cliff? He bowled right through them and went on his way. You think they just let him walk straight through?

Do you remember what Jesus did when the bullies attempted to use his temple as a place to trade goods? He stormed in there violently and vandalised their stalls. I'm sure some of them would have tried to stop him physically. How do you think he would have dealt with those people? In fact one might say he was the bully in that situation!

It seems Jesus drew the line many times when it came to bullies and his enemies.

The fact that he allowed himself to be tortured and crucified is irrelevant really. It was his plan that he should be tortured and crucified.

Excusing or justifying bullying is a terrible thing and if one uses the bible to justify it and teach people just to turn the other cheek or bless the bullies, then they are simply sweeping it under the carpet.

[OnceConvinced]

Can you point to any country in this world that has had God solve their poverty problems?


Can you point to any country that has had it's poverty problems solved due to anyone's prayer?

Yes ancient Israel. But they tossed it all away for villainy.

So the problem was never solved then. All it was, was a band aid solution.

ie what you said here:
"As for focusing on the poor and needy, that's good and all but stopping why they are in that position in the first place is better."

It was never stopped was it? It was only a temporary halt. (if it ever happened at all)

I thought you were wondering if could be done with prayer along with following commandments. Yes it can but if people stop praying and following commandments, He stops. Isn't that the point of this thread? Israel 'put God aside' how did it work out? Remember, from earlier I am not an advocate of praying only, nor is God, according to the scriptures.

Did all of Israeli put aside God?

So what you seem to be implying here is that all Christians need to be in unity and praying about the same thing for God to do anything. They can't stop praying either. That doesn't sound very realistic to me.

If that's what's required for God to do anything, then it's no wonder nothing actually does get done. We might as well just not have God at all. We might as well put God aside. Things would continue on as they have been.

[2timothy316]

I think you underestimate what some JWs live through in some countries every day.

I'm sure whatever it is, is exaggerated as with most Christians who claim persecution.

Really? Then you don't know what is going on in Russia?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40635267

JW kids are being taken from them. Their homes are being burned. They are losing their jobs because they have been labeled as 'extremist' like ISIS and other terrorist groups.

Perhaps, you'd care to rephrase?
Here is a Google search for you.
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... snaqhpIPs8

Surely God would realise that and would have given some conditions on exactly when you should draw the line at blessing your enemies

Tell me, while on Earth where was Jesus' line drawn?

Jesus stood up to the bullies.


What about when the adulteress was about to be stoned to death? He stepped in and stood up to the bullies on behalf of the adulteress.

What about when the crowds bullied Zacchaeus, calling him a sinner? Jesus stepped in there too to help him. The crowds then turned on him. What did he do? Whimper away? Certainly not.

He certainly had a lot to say to the Pharisees, didn't he? He wasn't afraid to get in their faces and even called them fools.

By going to the houses of tax collectors and other scum Jesus was thumbing his nose at the bullies. He wasn't going to buckle to their pressure.

What did Jesus do in Nazareth when the people there tried to throw him off a cliff? He bowled right through them and went on his way. You think they just let him walk straight through?

Do you remember what Jesus did when the bullies attempted to use his temple as a place to trade goods? He stormed in there violently and vandalised their stalls. I'm sure some of them would have tried to stop him physically. How do you think he would have dealt with those people? In fact one might say he was the bully in that situation!

It seems Jesus drew the line many times when it came to bullies and his enemies.

The fact that he allowed himself to be tortured and crucified is irrelevant really. It was his plan that he should be tortured and crucified.

Excusing or justifying bullying is a terrible thing and if one uses the bible to justify it and teach people just to turn the other cheek or bless the bullies, then they are simply sweeping it under the carpet.

So tell me what happened to Jesus when he was placed under arrest? Did he fight? Did he call down a legion of angels to defend himself? Jesus died at the hands of bullies for peace. "When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly." 1 Peter 2:23. That is the bar that I try to live up to.

[2timothy316]

Can you point to any country in this world that has had God solve their poverty problems?


Can you point to any country that has had it's poverty problems solved due to anyone's prayer?

Yes ancient Israel. But they tossed it all away for villainy.

So the problem was never solved then. All it was, was a band aid solution.

ie what you said here:
"As for focusing on the poor and needy, that's good and all but stopping why they are in that position in the first place is better."

It was never stopped was it? It was only a temporary halt. (if it ever happened at all)

I thought you were wondering if could be done with prayer along with following commandments. Yes it can but if people stop praying and following commandments, He stops. Isn't that the point of this thread? Israel 'put God aside' how did it work out? Remember, from earlier I am not an advocate of praying only, nor is God, according to the scriptures.

Did all of Israeli put aside God?

No. One in fact was Elijah. While the rest of the nation followed Baal he did not. 1 He was faithful can kept to true worship. He prayed for rain and God made it happen. Kings 18:41-19:8. But it wasn't just prayer the reason God listened. It was Elijah's works in loyalty to following commandments. Again, remember I'm not an advocate of prayer only.

So what you seem to be implying here is that all Christians need to be in unity and praying about the same thing for God to do anything. They can't stop praying either. That doesn't sound very realistic to me.

True Christians need to be in unity in prayer and action. We have to give Jehovah something to bless. If we need something we can't expect God to be our butler. Look at Israel. Did God alone build the temples? No. But He did give them the supplies, the skills, the people and the protection to build it. 1 Cor 3:9 says, "For we are God's fellow workers". He not our servant.

If that's what's required for God to do anything, then it's no wonder nothing actually does get done. We might as well just not have God at all. We might as well put God aside. Things would continue on as they have been.

"This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." 1 John 5:14. Nothing gets done today because people have put God aside. They don't even know what 'His will' is anymore. Many don't even care to know. If it doesn't directly benefit them, who cares what God wants, right?

I will say this though. The 'god' that you have more than likely be presented your whole life I could certainly see why you'd reason as you do. The cliches on billboards, bumper stickers etc are all hollow IMHO. That is why I choose to surround myself with people that do things not just say things.

faith without works is dead.​—Jas. 2:26.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 84 by 2timothy316]

No. But He did give them the supplies, the skills, the people and the protection to build it.

Please tell us by what you mean by the above.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 84 by 2timothy316]

No. But He did give them the supplies, the skills, the people and the protection to build it.

Please tell us by what you mean by the above.

The would require posting many scriptures that I feel no one would read.
So anyone interested feel free to read down to 'inauguration' and please read all the scriptures sighted.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004359

The short version is that God blesses efforts. Like the building of Solomon's Temple. Men built it but God blessed their efforts. If no effort is put forth, there is nothing to bless nothing gets done. That is what we are seeing today right?

[marco]

The short version is that God blesses efforts. Like the building of Solomon's Temple. Men built it but God blessed their efforts. If no effort is put forth, there is nothing to bless nothing gets done. That is what we are seeing today right?

Yes, he has blessed the Vatican enormously for the many beautiful churches dedicated to Him. I am in awe of the sculptures and the paintings dedicated to Christ. Though Somalia is perhaps the poorest country in the world, God is paid enormous honour through the building of mosques as soon as cash is available. People dutifully starve rather than refuse a mosque, so I suppose God is very impressed. The reward will come in heaven when apparently people will enjoy clean water and some fresh fruit.

That brings us back to the long-neglected OP - if we all made an effort to get on with each other, would it matter if we ignored God? Somalia for instance might produce food rather than mosques, and JWs could knock on the doors of poor people and give them food or money rather than divine advice.

[2timothy316]

JWs could knock on the doors of poor people and give them food or money rather than divine advice.

JWs spend millions of our own money on disaster relief every year. So we do give people food and money even though there are only 8 million of us and billions of people in the world. So rather than making false suggestions about how we don't do anything and give us some help for the other 7,592,000,000 other people in the world. We also give comfort from the Bible. We do both. Here are links to just a drop in the bucket of the many things we do. We are supporting people 24-7-365 all around the world. If we have it people get it.

Wildfires
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODAct ... 09_5_VIDEO

Hurricane Matthew
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODAct ... 7_12_VIDEO

Typhoon Haiyan
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODAct ... 11_1_VIDEO

We also help people spiritually as everyone knows because what good is all the money in the world if a person is in crushed in spirit and in despair?

Kindly retract your false statement suggesting we do nothing and research before you type.

[William]

[Replying to post 88 by 2timothy316]

Kindly retract your false statement suggesting we do nothing and research before you type.

The statement wasn't false as you claim;

That brings us back to the long-neglected OP - if we all made an effort to get on with each other, would it matter if we ignored God? Somalia for instance might produce food rather than mosques, and JWs could knock on the doors of poor people and give them food or money rather than divine advice.

The statement was aligned with the OP title. It is saying that rather than running around trying to find converts to support the JW idea of GOD, (or any idea of GOD for that matter) that this is an unnecessary addition to simply doing the right thing.

It makes sense really. Why be prompted into doing the right thing simply because you think some GOD requires that of you. Are JWs incapable of doing the right thing without this additional motivation?

For example, would you want to do the right thing IF there was no promise of being selected as acceptable to being a member of the 'New Earth' and living forever there?

If the answer is 'yes' then one should be able to do the right thing without GOD, and one should have no need for any organised religion.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 88 by 2timothy316]

Kindly retract your false statement suggesting we do nothing and research before you type.

The statement wasn't false as you claim;

So you didn't visit any of the links where we give ton of food and water to disaster areas. Rebuild homes for not only JWs but for strangers too. You didn't listen to any of that?

To say all we do is go from door to door is false. Please don't say it again.