What if we put God aside?

[marco]

In one of the posts "what if" featured. Usually that solves nothing, but let's take it that the world has agreed, at least for a few years, to serve NO God, but put all former religious efforts and practices into paying attention to the poor and needy. Instead of thanking God for a robin's red breast or a daffodil's yellow bloom we would thank people for kindness and good works. We would still have our thieves, our killers and our abusers but the Law could deal with them without God's assistance, as it does now.

Would we have a better world? And why or why not?

[OnceConvinced]

I think you underestimate what some JWs live through in some countries every day.

I'm sure whatever it is, is exaggerated as with most Christians who claim persecution.

Really? Then you don't know what is going on in Russia?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40635267

JW kids are being taken from them. Their homes are being burned. They are losing their jobs because they have been labeled as 'extremist' like ISIS and other terrorist groups.

Perhaps, you'd care to rephrase?

This sort of stuff happens to other Christians in other countries too. Just look at Muslim countries. It's not just specifically JWs who get persecuted. You are singling out one country. It's not going on in most. In fact I come from a country where there is very little persecution towards any Christians and we are becoming more and more atheist.

Does stuff like that happen in your country? Are you having your children taken off you or having your house burned?

You are exaggerating the problem.

Actually take a look at the bottom of that same page you posted the link to at his story:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33201010

What about the abuse at the hands of JWs, huh? Should we take that as typical of JW churches?

So tell me what happened to Jesus when he was placed under arrest? Did he fight?

I already addressed this:
"The fact that he allowed himself to be tortured and crucified is irrelevant really. It was his plan that he should be tortured and crucified."

That was a case of Jesus undertaking a mission. His mission was to die for our sins, so he had no choice but to let them arrest him. The way I see it now is that he was trying to fulfil prophecy.

Are you just simply going to ignore the examples I gave of where Jesus drew the line when it come to bullying? The line was drawn and just like Jesus drew the line when it comes to bullying so should we. He didn't always bless his enemies. He didn't always turn the other cheek. Going on a rampage in the temple should surely show you that.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 84 by 2timothy316]

No. But He did give them the supplies, the skills, the people and the protection to build it.

Please tell us by what you mean by the above.

The would require posting many scriptures that I feel no one would read.
So anyone interested feel free to read down to 'inauguration' and please read all the scriptures sighted.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004359

The short version is that God blesses efforts. Like the building of Solomon's Temple. Men built it but God blessed their efforts. If no effort is put forth, there is nothing to bless nothing gets done. That is what we are seeing today right?

Hmm...typically, when someone "gives" to someone else, it involves that first person holding or having in their possession a widget, and transferring possession (if not outright ownership) to the second person.
At no point in the page you link to, does it indicate that God gave anything to David, Solomon or the builders. Anything that could be satisfactorily indicated as having come from God, versus having come from elsewhere or gathered on their own. Not once does it spell the difference between God giving the skill of stonework or temple-building versus someone who learns it as a trade over a number of years.

So would I be right in concluding that the phrase "He did give them the supplies, the skills, the people and the protection to build it." doesn't really mean anything? It's synonymous with "They gathered the materials themselves and studied construction, and employed the builders, and arranged their guards"?

[OnceConvinced]

. Nothing gets done today because people have put God aside.

Nothing gets done because people would rather sit around praying, hoping God will save us, rather than actually getting up and taking action. Nothing also gets done because the problem is so huge and it\'s hard to come up with a solution that would be practical. God however could solve the whole problem with the spoken word if he wanted to.

They don\'t even know what \'His will\' is anymore.

Christians can\'t even agree on what his will is, so how can anyone know it?

Many don\'t even care to know. If it doesn't directly benefit them, who cares what God wants, right?

Most likely they don\'t care because they don\'t believe in God. Do you care about the will of Krishna?

I will say this though. The \'god\' that you have more than likely be presented your whole life I could certainly see why you'd reason as you do.

The god I once believed in was an all powerful, all knowing deity. A loving and caring deity who wanted the best for human beings. A loving caring God who wanted the best for me. A god who had the whole world in his hands. Is that different from your version of god?

[2timothy316]

[quote:08c61fcfb8="2timothy316"]
[quote:08c61fcfb8="OnceConvinced"]
[quote:08c61fcfb8="2timothy316"]
I think you underestimate what some JWs live through in some countries every day. [/quote:08c61fcfb8]

I\'m sure whatever it is, is exaggerated as with most Christians who claim persecution.

Really? Then you don\'t know what is going on in Russia?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40635267

JW kids are being taken from them. Their homes are being burned. They are losing their jobs because they have been labeled as \'extremist\' like ISIS and other terrorist groups.

Perhaps, you\'d care to rephrase?

This sort of stuff happens to other Christians in other countries too.
So when when you read something like http://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnes ... urt-611138 you callously say:
"Just look at Muslim countries. It\'s not just specifically JWs who get persecuted. You are singling out one country. It\'s not going on in most. In fact I come from a country where there is very little persecution towards any Christians and we are becoming more and more atheist."

I mean and I'm the one accused of not doing anything? Wow....

Does stuff like that happen in your country? Are you having your children taken off you or having your house burned?

I\'m glad you asked. Yes it does.
Read and I hope perhaps you can find compassion.
https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles ... nN4Z-dryUk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecuti ... ted_States

An excerpt from one of the articles.
"many children of Witnesses were expelled from public schools. The Witnesses' apparent lack of patriotism angered local authorities, the American Legion, and others, resulting in vigilante violence during World War II. Men, women, and children were injured in mob attacks."

Yes, right here in YOUR country. Aren\'t you proud?

You are exaggerating the problem.

When is it not an exaggeration? OC are you having a bad day? Normally you\'re not so cold and better informed.

Actually take a look at the bottom of that same page you posted the link to at his story:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33201010

What about the abuse at the hands of JWs, huh? Should we take that as typical of JW churches?

Nope. Certainly you agree that it shouldn\'t be allowed to keep happening either no matter the person's religion.

[quote:08c61fcfb8="2timothy316"]
So tell me what happened to Jesus when he was placed under arrest? Did he fight?

I already addressed this:
"The fact that he allowed himself to be tortured and crucified is irrelevant really. It was his plan that he should be tortured and crucified."

That was a case of Jesus undertaking a mission. His mission was to die for our sins, so he had no choice but to let them arrest him. The way I see it now is that he was trying to fulfil prophecy.

Are you just simply going to ignore the examples I gave of where Jesus drew the line when it come to bullying? The line was drawn and just like Jesus drew the line when it comes to bullying so should we. He didn\'t always bless his enemies. He didn\'t always turn the other cheek. Going on a rampage in the temple should surely show you that.[/quote]
He didn't hit anyone though. There is no record of Jesus ever hitting anyone. All his power and how many wars did he partake in against Rome? None. And Rome was full of bullies. At the temple he was not fighting bullies. He was driving out people trying to clean his Father's house of corruption.

Please show me just one scripture where Jesus protected a single person with violence. Just one.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 92 by rikuoamero]

You read none of the scriptures, as I knew you wouldn't.

"Meanwhile, the word of Jehovah came to Solʹo·mon, saying: “As for this house that you are building, if you walk in my statutes and carry out my judgments and observe all my commandments by walking in them, I will also carry out with you my promise that I made to David your father." 1 Kings 6:11, 12.

David was denied building the temple. However, a promise made to David was, "He [Solomon] is the one who will build a house for my name. He will become my son, and I will be his father. I will firmly establish the throne of his kingship over Israel forever.’" 1 Chronicles 22:10

So yes God helped Solomon by carrying out what he promised David. The materials, the men, the money and everything needed all would have been backed by God because of the promise that God made to David.

This not the first time God has provided a place of worship. The Tabernacle that Moses built also had help from God. "Jehovah gave the people favor in the eyes of the Egyptians, so that they gave them what they asked for, and they plundered the Egyptians." Ex 12:36. Those things were later used to build the Tabernacle. (Ex 36:3, 6, 7) I see no reason that Jehovah God would do that for Moses but not do that for Solomon.

[William]

[Replying to post 90 by 2timothy316]

So you didn't visit any of the links where we give ton of food and water to disaster areas. Rebuild homes for not only JWs but for strangers too. You didn't listen to any of that?

To say all we do is go from door to door is false. Please don't say it again.

I checked the statement again and their is NO mention or even implication that this is ALL that JWs do.
Rather than divert from what is being pointed out to you by falsely saying someone said something they did not say at all, just respond with integrity to what is actually being said.

Or, if you cannot do that, then don't respond at all.

[marco]

JWs could knock on the doors of poor people and give them food or money rather than divine advice.

Kindly retract your false statement suggesting we do nothing and research before you type.

Interpretation is as important regarding modern texts as it is with Scripture. We can read a sentence and come away with our own view, reading into words something that was never there.

My meaning is: In the hypothetical event of us putting God aside and tending people, instead of a deity, those who knock on doors in order to preach about God could, given that avenue has been set aside, give money or food. It is my belief that JWs go from door to door to explain what they think the gospel means and to pass on what they believe is God's word. There is nothing that I have said that is false. One should be careful how one interprets sentences, be they in Scripture or just the words of some scribbler like me.

[2timothy316]

. Nothing gets done today because people have put God aside.

Nothing gets done because people would rather sit around praying, hoping God will save us, rather than actually getting up and taking action. Nothing also gets done because the problem is so huge and it's hard to come up with a solution that would be practical. God however could solve the whole problem with the spoken word if he wanted to.

"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.� (2 Peter 3:8-14)

When He does 'solve the whole problem with the spoken word' how will you be found? In peace?

I am not here to convince only inform.

Do you care about the will of Krishna.

Yes. I need to know what people are promised by Krishna so that I understand why people worship her.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 90 by 2timothy316]

So you didn't visit any of the links where we give ton of food and water to disaster areas. Rebuild homes for not only JWs but for strangers too. You didn't listen to any of that?

To say all we do is go from door to door is false. Please don't say it again.

I checked the statement again and their is NO mention or even implication that this is ALL that JWs do.

Me: Kindly retract your false statement suggesting we do nothing and research before you type.

You: The statement wasn't false as you claim;

viewtopic.php?p=904372#904372

I say, 'your statement suggesting we do nothing is false'
You say, 'the statement wasn't false'.

How am suppose to take that? Do you read the same words I do?

[2timothy316]

JWs could knock on the doors of poor people and give them food or money rather than divine advice.

Kindly retract your false statement suggesting we do nothing and research before you type.

Interpretation is as important regarding modern texts as it is with Scripture. We can read a sentence and come away with our own view, reading into words something that was never there.

So clear this all up for me. You agree that JWs don't just go door to door preaching but you see that we also do things for people in the way of helping in disasters, with material help as well as spiritual help and other practical ways. Let me type that again so there is no confusion. You understand we not only pray for help we actually go and help, both materially and spiritually. Yes or no.