Is this an example of God violating freewill?

[OnceConvinced]

Judges 7

In the story of Gideon, he is ordered by God to invade the Midianites. God gets Gideon and his army to go through a kind of "Israeli Idol" competition to weed out a large portion of the soldiers so there is only a group of 300 of them and somehow they are able to surround an entire encampment of Midianite soldiers who were apparently too large in number to count. Somehow they were able to make enough noise to make the Midianites think they were being invaded by armies from all quarters and scare the bejesus out of them.

Ignoring how unlikely this story is, I want to focus on to the part in the story where Gideon and his 300 men make their big ruckus by blowing trumpets and breaking pitchers, there is a very disturbing part of the verse, which I have underlined:

Judges 7:22
22 And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the Lord set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

This verse quite clearly states that it was God who caused these men to turn on each other and attempt to slay each other. He caused great confusion in their minds to the point where they believed they were killing their enemies, not their fellow soldiers.

So my question is, is this an example of God violating freewill? If not, please justify why you would say it's not.

[OnceConvinced]

I've taken the position in a recent thread I created about Pharoah that violating the will of the bad guys is OK.

Rationally speaking society through the law attempts to violate the free will of bad people all the time and we don't think we are bad.

What I want to know is are there any examples of God violating the free will of a good person?

That's a very good question. However do you really think that all the Midianites were bad guys? They were simply fighting for their city and following orders.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 10 by OnceConvinced]

One of the points of defeating the midianites with 300 in that manner was so that no Israelite could claim the glory.

It's one of the reasons we believe Jesus is God in the new testament because it follows the pattern in the OT of God saving his people.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Judges 7:22
22 And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the Lord set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

We find similar attributions to divinity in other ancient near eastern texts. The whole question of violating free will is a Red Herring. It is not possible; not in the sense that, say, flying like superman is impossible, but in the sense that a round triangle is impossible.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Judges 7:22
22 And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the Lord set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

We find similar attributions to divinity in other ancient near eastern texts. The whole question of violating free will is a Red Herring. It is not possible; not in the sense that, say, flying like superman is impossible, but in the sense that a round triangle is impossible.

How is violating free will logically impossible? How do you define free will?

[The Tanager]

The words seem very clear and they clearly state that it was God himself who set every man's sword against each other. It's nothing like you are describing. Either the words of the story are a lie or you're wrong.

It doesn't say in that one verse how God set them against each other. So we look at context. Verses 13-14 show a Midianite having a dream that another interprets as saying God will give the Midianites into the hand of Gideon and his army. According to the story, the Midianites are afraid. So, they hear the noise and flee. Gideon and his 300 know it wasn't because of their strength or own plans and give God the credit. That's what the passage seems to state to me. Just saying you think the words are clearly something us doesn't move the discussion forward.

God works in mysterious ways. Just look at the story that led up to it and how he weeded out the majority of the army to get the final 300. He could have just named the 300 without all the rigmarole. Or just randomly selected one group. Unless of course he needed people who lapped up water like dogs for this one.

How they drink water seems to be random to me. How do you define 'random'?

Perhaps God required a step of faith first before he intervened? Thus he required the 300 to show their faith by making that noise before he was willing to step in and confuse the army himself. Remember this is an army that was so huge they couldn't even be counted! They would have been camped with tents spread out and fires alight. Imagine how much space this army would occupy. So do you really think that 300 men with trumpets and pitchers could terrify and confuse an army that big? Can you imagine 300 men attempting to surround this massive army, let alone terrify them so much that it caused mass confusion enough to have them turn on each other.

Whether it actually happened or not is a separate question from what I was responding to. I was responding to the point that taking the story as it claims, would this be an example of negating free will. As it is written I don't think it is.

It's like the Walls of Jericho story. There's no way that shouting would have brought those walls down. God had to bring an earthquake. Joshua's army had shown their faith and God honoured that faith by bringing on the earthquake.

Okay. How does that negate free will? And how would adding noise to the 300 (if that is your point) negate the free will of the Midianites?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 10 by OnceConvinced]

One of the points of defeating the midianites with 300 in that manner was so that no Israelite could claim the glory.

It's one of the reasons we believe Jesus is God in the new testament because it follows the pattern in the OT of God saving his people.

Yes, I agree that was the intention of God. He wanted to show his power to his people. They did not need a huge army, because God was going to do the work himself, ie turn the Midianites against each other.

[OnceConvinced]

The words seem very clear and they clearly state that it was God himself who set every man's sword against each other. It's nothing like you are describing. Either the words of the story are a lie or you're wrong.

It doesn't say in that one verse how God set them against each other. So we look at context. Verses 13-14 show a Midianite having a dream that another interprets as saying God will give the Midianites into the hand of Gideon and his army. According to the story, the Midianites are afraid. So, they hear the noise and flee. Gideon and his 300 know it wasn't because of their strength or own plans and give God the credit. That's what the passage seems to state to me. Just saying you think the words are clearly something us doesn't move the discussion forward.

I don't see any reason to change the words that are clearly there in black and white. You insisting those words don't mean what they actually mean is not moving the discussion forward either.

God works in mysterious ways. Just look at the story that led up to it and how he weeded out the majority of the army to get the final 300. He could have just named the 300 without all the rigmarole. Or just randomly selected one group. Unless of course he needed people who lapped up water like dogs for this one.

How they drink water seems to be random to me. How do you define 'random'?

What I mean is by just pointing to one group and saying "That group there." doesn't matter which group and use them. There was no need to go through the charade of several different tests to pick 300.

The thing is when God chose 300 (as opposed to an entire army) it was his intention to show his power, wasn't it? It was so Gideon and his army would know that it was God who gave them the victory and it was not because of any effort on their part. So if it's as you say, then it all comes down to the Midianites being confused because of the 300 themselves. God gets none of the credit. For God to take credit for this victory he has to be the one who forced the Midianites to kill each other.

It's like the Walls of Jericho story. There's no way that shouting would have brought those walls down. God had to bring an earthquake. Joshua's army had shown their faith and God honoured that faith by bringing on the earthquake.

Okay. How does that negate free will? And how would adding noise to the 300 (if that is your point) negate the free will of the Midianites?

The point of bringing up the story of Jericho is to show that it was God who did the actual work in the end, not the armies. The armies were simply following instructions as an act of faith. God then honoured that faith. I bring up the Jericho story to show a parallel. In both stories it's actually God who destroys the opposing forces. It just so happens in the Gideon story he forced them all to turn on each other by violating their free will.

[1213]

...So my question is, is this an example of God violating freewill? If not, please justify why you would say it's not.

Bible doesn’t tell it happened by violating free will. I have no reason to think it happened by violating free will.