The atonement

[Elijah John]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

[2timothy316]

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes, All things are possible with God, we must not limit the Almighty with our human thinking. Something may seem impossible in our human terms but perfectly possible for the Almighty.

JW

If all things are possible to the Almighty, then why the need for a sacrifice at all? Why not atone for our sins without a sacrifice?

And before you start posting links to other debates, don't bother. Either actually answer my question directly, or don't bother responding.

Hi, i wanted to answer despite being directly linked to the conversation...

The sin sacrifice is actually a profound Judeo law... As far back as the early Israel tribal authority, laws were said to have been written down by Moses, inspired by God, and one law was the sin sacrifice... When ever anyone sinned, or broke a law, they would sacrifice a Ox, or a Sheep, or a Lamb at the temple for atonement...

The Old Testement isnt clear WHY they did this, but just that God commanded it. It is actually pretty bizarre... How can killing a Lamb forgive you for your sin?

See and then Jesus came, and he took Judaism and all its bizzareness and made sense of it... Se Jesus demonstrated righteousness by laying down his life for sinners. By praying for the forgiveness of those killing Him, it is the pinnacle of righteousness, and in doing so Jesus fulfilled God's destiny. Jesus fulfilled God's law, and the sin sacrifice was fulfilled... This was a demonstration of prophecy fulfillment, and a demonstration of perfect righteousness...

If you have questions, one book I might recommend is the book of Hebrews...

Many of the faithful understood the meaning of the sacrifices. Many times most of Israel forgot. They became routine and began meaning nothing. They forgot there is a cost for sin. Death. Also, to lose a lamb, an ox or a bull was very expensive. It was also to set a reminder, that there is a savior coming that will pay for all those sins and the sin sacrifice would no longer be needed.

Jesus indeed made sense of law perfectly. Yet before Jesus there were quite a good number that had maybe not a perfect understanding but a really good one. Mostly when Israel was being obedient, which let's face it, was rare.

[JehovahsWitness]

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes, All things are possible with God, we must not limit the Almighty with our human thinking. Something may seem impossible in our human terms but perfectly possible for the Almighty.

JW

If all things are possible to the Almighty, then why the need for a sacrifice at all? Why not atone for our sins without a sacrifice?

And before you start posting links to other debates, don't bother. Either actually answer my question directly, or don't bother responding.

LINE ONE: There is a difference between that which is possible and that which is beneficial.

LINE TWO: Regarding the queston of the morality of what is possible regarding the ransom, please see my earlier post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933


This post is not a one line answer as it contains three lines.



JW

[Elijah John]

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Yes, All things are possible with God, we must not limit the Almighty with our human thinking. Something may seem impossible in our human terms but perfectly possible for the Almighty.

JW


RELATED POSTS

Is there scriptural support for the notion of a ransom sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 119#827119

Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280

True, but shouldn't things make sense here on a debating site?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]

I'm not sure what things you are refering to, but the things God has done do indeed make perfect sense, here on this debating site and elsewhere.

At least to me and millions that share my view.

JW

[bluethread]

First, Yeshua's sacrifice was more than His death , or even "the passion". It was His entire life unto death. Why would Adonai do this? As an object lesson regarding how we should then live. Why is His death then referred to as an atonement? That is because the sacrificial system was set up as a series of object lessons, that are repeated over and over again, so we can be constantly reminded of what Adonai requires. Yeshua's death make it easier for us to make the connection of those object lesson with our daily lives. He, in that sense, embodies, or fulfills, those sacrifices. Adonai's people are called to live sacrificial lives unto death in accordance with those lessons, as embodied in the person and works of Yeshua.

[Elijah John]

It is not about whether or not Christ is God.

It is not about whether or not it will make sense to us.

It is not "human sacrifice, an abomination", but about a ransom made by a redeemer as announced by the angel of God; Matthew 1:20-21.

Well, Christ was a man, right? And his death is understood to be the sacrifice for our sin. So how is that not a form of human sacrifice?

Human sacrifice is an abomination..There is no provision for acceptable human sacrifice in Mosaic law.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]

I'm not sure what things you are refering to, but the things God has done do indeed make perfect sense, here on this debating site and elsewhere.

At least to me and millions that share my view.

JW

Things? Let's focus on the atonement. Please demonstrate that the atonement makes sense, whether Jesus was God or whether he was a man. The OP is suggesting that either way, the atonement does not make sense.

[bluethread]

It is not about whether or not Christ is God.

It is not about whether or not it will make sense to us.

It is not "human sacrifice, an abomination", but about a ransom made by a redeemer as announced by the angel of God; Matthew 1:20-21.

Well, Christ was a man, right? And his death is understood to be the sacrifice for our sin. So how is that not a form of human sacrifice?

Human sacrifice is an abomination..There is no provision for acceptable human sacrifice in Mosaic law.

Self sacrifice is not an abomination. The sacrifice of another is an abomination.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please demonstrate that the atonement makes sense, whether Jesus was God or whether he was a man. The OP is suggesting that either way, the atonement does not make sense.

How? You want me to take a brain scan with a picture of a light bult going of in my mind? A perfect "life for a life" makes sense to me. What demonstration of it making sense to me would you like me to produce? A blood test? A brain scan? A signed affadavit?! It makes sense to me, it doesn't make sense to you. We are both faced with the same factual information, the "making sense" part is one's perception of those facts: how do you propose I "demonstrate" my mental perception?

JW

[Overcomer]

I recommend reading the Book of Hebrews. It explains it thoroughly. I'll post a few highlights.

Sin results in death, both spiritual and physical. We are born with sin natures as descendants of Adam. How do we obtain forgiveness for our sins? We read in Heb. 9:22 that “without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.�

As others in this thread have rightly noted, the Israelites sacrificed animals according to the Law of Moses. But these sacrifices didn't remove sins. They only covered them temporarily. Note that these animals had to be without blemish (Ex. 12:5).

But no animal could atone for the sins of humanity. Only a human could do that. But the human who atoned for the sins of humankind had to be unblemished, that is, free of sin. Since no human being is free of sin and no human being can make himself free of sin, that left humankind in a pickle.

But Jesus was the one man who was free of sin. He was free of sin because he was not only fully human, he was fully God at the same time (1 Peter 1:19 refers to him as the unblemished lamb). Therefore, he is the one and only being who could possibly atone for our sins and his atonement meant there was no more need of animal sacrifices any more.

As stated in Heb. 10:10, "we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

When we accept Christ's gift of atonement/forgiveness, we are given right-standing with God the Father. And that's why it is Christ and Christ alone who can do that for us. As Jesus himself said, no one comes to God except through him (John 14:6).