The atonement

[Elijah John]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

[1213]

...Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?
...

It would be good to notice, Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death, soh is death was not required for forgiveness.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

[2timothy316]

...Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?
...

It would be good to notice, Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death, soh is death was not required for forgiveness.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Yet the cured folks still died later from old age. Dying from old age is still dying from the result of sin. Thus Jesus showed he can forgive and remove sin but Adam's sin has not be removed. Otherwise that cured man would still be alive today if he was forgiven of all sin. Yet, “the wages sin pays is death.� (Romans 6:23) and that man died. One day through the blood of Jesus' death will be applied to Adamic sin and no one will die from it. (Rev 21:4) What Jesus did on the Earth was to bring hope that one day our last enemy death will be done away with. Yet the ransom price, though paid as not been gifted to us.

[bluethread]

Self sacrifice is not an abomination. The sacrifice of another is an abomination.

Where in scripture does it make the exception that human sacrifice is acceptable as long as you sacrifice yourself?

Even though he is gone, let me answer the question anyway.

Paul speaks of this concept. (Rom. 12:1 CJB) "I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of Eloheim's mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for Eloheim. This will please him; it is the logical "Temple worship" for you."

[Elijah John]

Self sacrifice is not an abomination. The sacrifice of another is an abomination.

Where in scripture does it make the exception that human sacrifice is acceptable as long as you sacrifice yourself?

Even though he is gone, let me answer the question anyway.

Paul speaks of this concept. (Rom. 12:1 CJB) "I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of Eloheim's mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for Eloheim. This will please him; it is the logical "Temple worship" for you."

Key word here, living as in "living sacrifice". Metaphor. Christ on the cross was a literal execution. Was Paul using metaphor in defining Christ's martyrdom as a sacrifice for our sins? Or was he being literal. As in an appeasement, a "payment" for sin? To counter a legal imbalance.

If the latter, how is that not a form of human sacrifice?

[bluethread]

Self sacrifice is not an abomination. The sacrifice of another is an abomination.

Where in scripture does it make the exception that human sacrifice is acceptable as long as you sacrifice yourself?

Even though he is gone, let me answer the question anyway.

Paul speaks of this concept. (Rom. 12:1 CJB) "I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of Eloheim's mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for Eloheim. This will please him; it is the logical "Temple worship" for you."

Key word here, living as in "living sacrifice". Metaphor. Christ on the cross was a literal execution. Was Paul using metaphor in defining Christ's martyrdom as a sacrifice for our sins? Or was he being literal. As in an appeasement, a "payment" for sin? To counter a legal imbalance.

If the latter, how is that not a form of human sacrifice?

Legal imbalance is a Christian doctrine. It is ironic how Christians fault the Tanakh for being "legalistic", yet they base their doctrine on legal imbalance. do not think that Paul is using the term "ransom" to refer to a judicial fine. I say this because the Tanakh does not teach that concept. Rather, "ransom" in the Tanakh is related to slavery, not death. Thus, Yeshua's sacrificial life unto death serves as a means to "ransom" us from the slavery of sin and death. The context in I Tim. 2 is "that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." In Hebrews 9:15 he says, "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." This speaks of a ransom from the slavery of the written Torah, by HaTorah being written on our hearts. A slave does not recieve an inheritance, as long as there is a son. Since, Yeshua lives, we can not inherit. (Jn. 1:12) "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—"

[TripleZ]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

It is not about whether or not Christ is God.

It is not about whether or not it will make sense to us.

It is not "human sacrifice, an abomination", but about a ransom made by a redeemer as announced by the angel of God; Matthew 1:20-21.

Romans 3:4

Absolutely not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that You may be justified in Your words, and prevail in Your judgments.�

these are just suppositions, where did you get those ideas from in the first place..?

[1213]

Yet the cured folks still died later from old age. Dying from old age is still dying from the result of sin.

In Biblical point of view this “life� is actually the first death. It is not meant that people remain in this death forever. Eternal life is with God. And it is reserved for those who are righteous. And the message was not that we remain in this death forever, but that we can have sins forgiven and become righteous, so that this death will not hold us, like it didn’t hold Jesus.

In Biblical point of view, soul is the thing that needed to be saved, body can be replaced and is not the crucial matter. Body is only like a vessel for soul to experience things. And this experiment was for that we could know good and evil like Adam and Eve wanted to know.

… To those who sat in the region and shadow of death, To them light has dawned.
Matt. 4:16

….he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

… the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

[TripleZ]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Consider the option that Christ is God. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the contrite?

And if Christ is not God, does it make sense that one man,.even a perfect one could atone for the sins of all of humankind by his temporary death?

Also, if Christ is not God but a man, how is that not human sacrifice, an abomination?

After all. even a perfect man is still a man, right?

wow, some suppositions there, what is th epoint that you wish to make ?

Sacrifices to God for sin has to and must include the first born of the flock which is without spot or blemish,,when this is said of us humans it refers to being sinless...
This is the huge problem regarding this;
Verse 23;
Rom 3:21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well —
Rom 3:22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God's praise.

, so who will be our Sacrificial Lamb ? I know, the Lamb of God is... who told us/me Gods word alone did;
Joh 1:28 All this took place in Beit-Anyah, east of the Yarden, where Yochanan was immersing.
Joh 1:29 The next day, Yochanan saw Yeshua coming toward him and said, "Look! God's lamb! The one who is taking away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 This is the man I was talking about when I said, 'After me is coming someone who has come to rank above me, because he existed before me.'
Joh 1:31 I myself did not know who he was, but the reason I came immersing with water was so that he might be made known to Isra'el."
Joh 1:32 Then Yochanan gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit coming down from heaven like a dove, and remaining on him.
Joh 1:33 I myself did not know who he was, but the one who sent me to immerse in water said to me, 'The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining, this is the one who immerses in the Ruach HaKodesh.'
Joh 1:34 And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God."

Remember this, the wages of sin is DEATH, ie sin demands of us the payment of DEATH and this death is eternal..are you willing to make this payment or not ? I certainly am not...

So how can we escape this eternal payment/punishment ? We can not in and of ourselves but we can have Yeshua pay for us in our stead!

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 37 by TripleZ]

Parroting orthodoxy does not address the questions of the OP. I understand the theology, but do not see how that in and of itself answers any of the pertinent questions.

[wiploc]

Does the atonement of Christ make any sense?

Sure, just imagine it this way:

A guy goes into a restaurant and asks for a glass of water.

The waiter gives him water, and says, "That will be a hundred million billion dollars please."

The guy says, "I can't pay that."

And the waiter says, "Don't worry about it. I killed the busboy to cancel your bill."

What doesn't make sense about that?