How do we show Yahweh is true or false?

[marco]

We waste a lot of time patiently finding statements in the Bible that give Yahweh's view on this or that. I am firmly convinced that Yahweh is a fabrication. Is he a good fabrication? Obviously many people accept him and his exploits, so to some extent he is well constructed.

But if I were visited by some Christian people keen to enlighten me, what might I say that would turn them from their staunch belief and at least let them consider they might be wrong?

What is the best way to illustrate that Yahweh is a fiction?

Or, if one supposes he's real, how can one demonstrate his reality?

(I am dealing exclusively with Yahweh, not his relatives.)

[Divine Insight]

What is the best way to illustrate that Yahweh is a fiction?

I believe that Yahweh is one of the easiest Gods to demonstrate to be fictional.

Here are some of my personal reasons:

1. Yahweh curses the serpent in the garden of Eden to crawl on his belly and eat dirt for the rest of his days.

Contradiction: This is not the behavior of an all-wise, omnipotent, all benevolent God. To the contrary this is a nasty curse that represent demonic behavior, not divine behavior.

2. Yahweh curses Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth as a punishment for her disobedience.

Contradiction: Yahweh is supposed to be the Creator God who loves humans. It's his desire that humans procreate, not Eve's. So for this God to use procreation as a weapon of punishment contradicts the very nature and purpose this God is supposed to have.

3. Yahweh commands men, "Thou Shalt not Kill", and then turns around and commands them to judge each other to be sinners and stone each other to death.

Contradiction: An all-wise omniscient omnipotent God should know better than to ask incompetent men to do his judging and executions for him. Especially knowing full well that they would be making poor judgements and wrongful executions. This proves the fictional aspect of these stories to me.

4. Notice that none of Yahweh's attempts to put men on the path to righteousness have succeeded. Men become increasingly evil until he ends up having to drown them all out in a Global Flood.

Contradiction: This represents a supposedly all-wise omniscient God who has failed in all of his attempts to put mankind on a path to righteousness. An omnipotent omniscient God who is totally inept as a Creator.

5. Yahweh repents that he had ever created mankind.

Contradiction: This is a God who himself openly confessed that he's a lousy creator.

6. Yahweh sends his only begotten Son to earth to be crucified by humans so that he can offer humans undeserved amnesty.

Contradiction #1: If this God is omniscient and knew that this was the only way to save men he should have offered Adam and Eve a hammer, some spikes, and his Son. Let Adam and Eve chose whether or not to nail Jesus to a tree to obtain undeserved amnesty for their mistakes.

Contradiction #2: If having Jesus crucified by humans is the only way to offer humans amnesty for their sins Yahweh should have done this at the time of the Great Flood. Why bother drowning people out when that won't help anything?

Contradiction #3: If death is the wages of sin and eternal life is given to the righteous, then how could it be said that Jesus paid the wages of sin when he ultimately obtained eternal life?

~~~~~

These are just a small sample of the myriad of obvious problems and contradictions contained in these fables. There can be no doubt that this is a fictitious mythology created by authors who weren't even bright enough to realize all of the contradictions they were creating with this ongoing superstitious saga.

Yahweh is necessarily a false superstitious tale. There can be no doubt about it.

If there is a God, it's not Yahweh.

[marco]

I believe that Yahweh is one of the easiest Gods to demonstrate to be fictional.

I want to be fair here, DI. We have to deal with metaphor and poetic reporting, as well as the premise that what seems bad in human eyes is not so with God, man's wisdom being folly in heaven.

1. Yahweh curses the serpent in the garden of Eden to crawl on his belly and eat dirt for the rest of his days.

Contradiction: This is not the behavior of an all-wise, omnipotent, all benevolent God. To the contrary this is a nasty curse that represent demonic behavior, not divine behavior.

I agree with the critique but who says that Yahweh has to act without severity? The counter is: what Yahweh chooses to do is right. He is not restricted by human definitions of his character.

2. Yahweh curses Eve with greatly multiplied pain and sorrow in childbirth as a punishment for her disobedience.

Contradiction: Yahweh is supposed to be the Creator God who loves humans. It's his desire that humans procreate, not Eve's. So for this God to use procreation as a weapon of punishment contradicts the very nature and purpose this God is supposed to have.

Again he has instilled desire which is strong enough to endure pain. His remit may not have been to make things easy. Out of bitter comes forth sweetness.

3. Yahweh commands men, "Thou Shalt not Kill", and then turns around and commands them to judge each other to be sinners and stone each other to death.

Yes, this seems to contradict what he's already said. I think that approach is closer to unmasking him. But again human contradiction may not be so in divine eyes.

4. Notice that none of Yahweh's attempts to put men on the path to righteousness have succeeded. Men become increasingly evil until he ends up having to drown them all out in a Global Flood.

Such is free will and such is the anger of God. Jesus indicated that heaven's gate is narrow; multitudes are given the chance but few succeed. But yes, it seems a mark of failure to destroy all his products because of some design fault.

5. Yahweh repents that he had ever created mankind.

Yes, this is odd, but of course it can be claimed that this is man's interpretation of God's feelings. God is given words, but this is mere poetry. As Paul said, we see through a glass darkly.

6. Yahweh sends his only begotten Son to earth to be crucified by humans so that he can offer humans undeserved amnesty.

Yes, this is absurd since it involves making humans the agents of Christ's destruction, and causing them to be cursed. Without the baddies God's plan won't work. But Yahweh's existence doesn't depend on our interpretation of Christ's purpose.

Yahweh is necessarily a false superstitious tale. There can be no doubt about it.

If there is a God, it's not Yahweh.

Well there is doubt as many testify. And for some there is certainty that he is, was and always will be. I agree with your reservations but man's ability to believe conquers most objections. Being Devil's Advocate I would say your objections raise questions about man's perception of God and his ways, but they don't dismiss Yahweh. If, as I think, he is a human product, it should be possible to debunk him, though maybe not as easily as you assume.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

Proof? How about objective interpretation of the Jesus scenario?
Rome arrests an insurrectionist and has him killed, by special endorsement of the Palestinian people?

Where is anything divine required about that story?

[marco]

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

Proof? How about objective interpretation of the Jesus scenario?
Rome arrests an insurrectionist and has him killed, by special endorsement of the Palestinian people?

Where is anything divine required about that story?

And that would suggest Jesus is not divine, just a preacher. However, Yahweh is untouched by slurs on Christ, as any Jew would affirm. Like Horatius I'm holding the bridge in temporary defence, not because I believe Yahweh is true, but because I'm keen to be utterly fair and see convincing indications that Yahweh is a fiction. Or not!

[1213]

...These are just a small sample of the myriad of obvious problems and contradictions contained in these fables. There can be no doubt that this is a fictitious mythology created by authors who weren't even bright enough to realize all of the contradictions they were creating with this ongoing superstitious saga.

....

I hope people notice that those are contradictions between your opinion about good and your interpretation of the Bible.

Even if they would be real, it would only demonstrate that God that is not nice in your opinion may exist or may not. It really has nothing to do with does Bible God exist or not.

[marco]

Even if they would be real, it would only demonstrate that God that is not nice in your opinion may exist or may not. It really has nothing to do with does Bible God exist or not.

You are right to some extent; there is no reason to demand that God be good in human eyes. When we believe he is not, the fault may lie with us, as I have said earlier.

However, is the default position that Yahweh is real? Do we simply accept this, and every account of his words and deeds, with not a single analytical thought? Surely seeking the truth of someone's identity is an essential.

When you hear that Yahweh wants foreskins and you know that nomadic tribesmen wanted these as war trophies, you wonder if Yahweh is the genuine article. When he claims that a rainbow is the sign of his contract, you realise that primitive folk had no idea what made a rainbow - and one suspects that neither did Yahweh. When in Exodus he offers to show Moses his hindquarters, we smile. Can this be God or a circus performer?

[amortalman]

We waste a lot of time patiently finding statements in the Bible that give Yahweh's view on this or that. I am firmly convinced that Yahweh is a fabrication. Is he a good fabrication? Obviously many people accept him and his exploits, so to some extent he is well constructed.

But if I were visited by some Christian people keen to enlighten me, what might I say that would turn them from their staunch belief and at least let them consider they might be wrong?

What is the best way to illustrate that Yahweh is a fiction?

Or, if one supposes he's real, how can one demonstrate his reality?

(I am dealing exclusively with Yahweh, not his relatives.)

Several years ago, when I was still a Christian, I was reading some material on a Christian apologists website concerning how to respond to Jehova's Witnesses when they come knocking on your door. The Apologist provided a number of questions that one could confront the Witnesses with for the sole purpose of creating doubt about their beliefs. He explained that it was very difficult to convince them that their beliefs were not true Christian beliefs at all. He said that all you could hope for was to create doubt and in that seed of doubt there is hope that they will see the truth, a "truth" that I would later realize is just another lie.

But I think the Apologist was on to something. No committed Christian who is confident enough in his faith to get into it with a bunch of atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and space aliens aren't going to suddenly see the light and denounce their faith. They have too much invested. But doubt is easier to accomplish than conversion. Not that we're trying to convert anyone, but we do want them to know there are sound, logical, intelligent, reasons for not believing.

Perhaps the apologist's approach can be used effectively with the worshippers of Yahwey. For the past year that I've been reading these boards, I've discovered many common sense reasons for disbelieving the god of the Old Testament - from you and many others. I think this is the only thing one can do. Keep hammering at the illogicality of believing in Yahwey.

With every well presented and intelligent response to the claims of Christianity, we plant seeds of doubt. I'm a first-hand witness to the effectiveness of this. A couple of years before I left my evangelical faith on the altar of Reason I got into a discussion with an atheist. He wasn't rude, he wasn't insulting. He calmly stated his reasons for unbelief and asked some difficult questions that I had no good answers for. How much impact that had on my decision two years later to abandon my faith I'm not sure. But the memory of that discussion popped up several times in the intervening years. You might say it was nagging at me. A nagging doubt.

[Willum]

Hmmm, yes it is a question that comes up occasionally on this site:
What would convince you Yahweh doesn't exist?

And the answer is evasion.

I think the answer derived from this is that Jews and Christians must understand at some level Yahweh is, false.

[marco]

With every well presented and intelligent response to the claims of Christianity, we plant seeds of doubt.

I think active intelligence provides poor pasture for evangelists; those in need: the hungry, the meek, the downtrodden, the simple, the despairing, the troubled make good listeners. Jesus knew this and promised the impossible. Muhammad knew this and promised the absurd. In the end numbers, not intelligence, count; a billion worshippers and a few sharp clerics will do nicely. A good recruiting sergeant is Threat; as a boy I was ever conscious that if I lied, or swore or did what boys do, I would deserve the flames of hell. Poor Muslim apostates will have their skin burned off eternally. It's a thought!

One caution, though. In putting Yahweh back into his bottle we are not dismissing the idea that there is Intelligence above our own. We are simply dismissing the Iago figure of the Bible, the big bad wolf who counts our defaults but says little about our merits, slayer of millions, merciless and unpredictable. The vast heat of hatred once generated by those who decried Yahweh has largely gone, replaced by an an even darker and crueller Islamic brand for those who call teddy bears Muhammad or draw pictures.

All the emotion is in the mind of the human believer. Heaven is bare, like the back-quarters of God as he zoomed across the sky in front of mesmerised Moses.