Satan and His Demons - Implausible

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Satan and His Demons - Implausible

Post #1

Post by Dimmesdale »

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology. This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

But that is only one reason. I think there are others.

Discuss?

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Re: Satan and His Demons - Implausible

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

7homas wrote: The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think.


What individuals generally find "gratifying" is a reflection of their values and expectations and is highly subjective.. Since Satan and the demons rebelled against God and have consistently attempted to, and to a degree succeeded in, deceive humans, it is evident they desired to do this and the endeavor has no doubt proved "gratifying" to them to at least some degree since we usually find doing what we desire to do "gratifying".

It should be noted that what someone finds "gratifying" is not necessarily what is beneficial long or short term. Indeed people can find illcit sex, the oppression and or exploitation of others, the over consumption of alcohol or illicit mind altering drugs "gratifying" although such things are decidedly harmful to themselves and others. This is certainly the case for Satan and the demons.
7homas wrote:While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it.
Possibly they do find their interactions with humans "demeaning" to some degree, humans are after all a lower life form but evidently not so demeaning they don't do it or as I have said evidently derive some degree of satisfaction from doing it. Again, if they found the idea of rebellion and deception too demeaning they wouldn't have done it.
7homas wrote: Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are theresult of human frailty and psychology.
SADISTIC
deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.

  • If anything "sadist" seems to be the very definition of Satan and the demons. They seem to take a sadistic delight in maiming people causing them physical and emotional pain and causing or witnessing the death of humans and even animals (compare Acts 19:13-16; Mat 8:28-34). Genesis 6 also seems to indicate the demons are also sexual perverts (compare Genesis 6:1-8; Jude 1:6). Deception also seems to be one of their chosen methods to achieve their aims (see 2 Cor 4:4; 2 Cor 11:14).

    The book of Job however indicates that as "gratifying" as they find this, there are other issues at play, namely attacking Almighty God the Creator. God loves humans, he has affection for all his creation and Satan knows that hurting humans causes Jehovah (the Creator) pain. Further that same book indicates Satan's rebellion against God involves humans to some degree, in short, whether or not Satan finds interaction with humans "demeaning", there is another game being played and that at the highest level with the greatest of all possible opponents
7homas wrote: If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination
James explains that sinful actions come as a result of allowing negative thoughts to take root in our hearts (read James 1:14)

Can a perfect being sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 903#873903
CONCLUSION: A careful examination of the bible, including the very informative book of Job, helps us understand that Satan's infliction pain and suffering on humans is but a part of the larger conflict between himself (Satan) and Almighty God himself. That said, Satan (and by implication the demons) do indeed seem to find great satisfaction in inflicting pain and suffering on others. If we find such base realities "all too human" it is because the world of unbelievers is blinded by Satan and the system reflects the perverted personality of its master rather than the other way round (see John 8:44).



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #3

Post by imhereforyou »

While there may indeed be a sense of good and evil in the universe, to anthropomorphize would be a mistake to me. Unless you think humanity is the ultimate mortal creation that exist anywhere. Then it would make sense I suppose.
Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology.
So it would seem. But it could also be they are part of a spiritual being - we don't know. But what we do know, more, is the here and now with us. Why do we have to look past what we see here and now into something 'else' to make sense of the here and now?
So silly to me.

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Re: Satan and His Demons - Implausible

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Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Since Satan and the demons rebelled against God and have consistently attempted to, and to a degree succeeded in, deceive humans, it is evident they desired to do this and the endeavor has no doubt proved "gratifying" to them to at least some degree since we usually find doing what we desire to do "gratifying".
I am constantly saddened by 21st century remnants of primitive ideas. In Islamic literature we are confronted with jinn who do naughty things and in Christian mythology we have demons entering the bodies of human beings presumably to give them flu or arthritis or even Tourette syndrome. We have the absurd but amusing tale of Christ talking to bad spirits and ingeniously transferring them to the bodies of pigs, which he them drives into the sea, to the annoyance of the owner.

It never seems to strike people that it is impossible for us to know about arguments that went on in heaven before we were Adamised from dirt. Perhaps a more informed society in the future will smile on people who could use computers, yet still accepted that devils crouched round street corners to trip us up.

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Re: Satan and His Demons - Implausible

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

7homas wrote:If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from?
Well, I don't believe they demons were once glorious creatures "as" (like/resembling) angels, but rather that demons were once angels (glorious spirit creatures in heaven). In short, the faithful angels are angels that did NOT fall, the demons were angels that did.


JW

Are Satan and the demons omniscient?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 291#848291
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Satan and His Demons - Implausible

Post #6

Post by William »

[Replying to post 1 by 7homas]

The idea of demons (and angels) is a natural extension of what I refer to as 'dualic' thinking and like God (good) and Devil (evil) they represent the dual nature of human thinking - how human beings understand their environment through this particular 'viewing lens'

Hot/cold dark/light male/female good/evil etc.

The story where Jesus fasts for 40 days and afterwards is tempted by Satan, represents him facing his demon and without this demon he would not have been able to be tempted, and without being tempted he would not have been able to resist the temptation.

If we study the temptations on offer in the story, we can get a glimpse into the very things which Jesus had a weakness for.

Personally I think the story itself is a fabrication of Rome, but whatever!

Do demons (and angels) actually exist?

According to my theology, yes they do - but they do not exist as creations of First Source but rather, of human imagination - and human imagination makes things real - not necessarily within this reality but certainly within an alternate one (the Astral realm) and therein all things humanly imaginable can be experienced as real.

It may indeed be that the things imagined into existence in that realm can have an affect in this one (the physical universe) but I see little point in giving credit or blame for human actions in the physical universe to creatures imagined into existence in that realm.

If anything, that is what the stories appear to convey to me anyway - we have temptations which if we care to think them through in a logical manner with action and consequence as part of that recipe, we can deduce readily enough as to whether acting out or resisting that urge is the best option.

As the saying goes. "we all have of demons to face"

I have found the best way to deal with the problem of duality is in thinking about those cartoon characters representing an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, each one using MY head-space in order to argue THEIR case...symbolically I give them both the *flick* and tell them to sort their stuff out and stop using ME as their medium to do so.

It is quite an effective way in which to learn to NOT think in dualic terms.

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Re: Satan and His Demons - Implausible

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
7homas wrote:If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from?
Well, I don't believe they demons were once glorious creatures "as" (like/resembling) angels, but rather that demons were once angels (glorious spirit creatures in heaven). In short, the faithful angels are angels that did NOT fall, the demons were angels that did.

JW
I add the thought that the demons are angels who chose to reject YHWH as GOD and were passed over for election, the holy elect angels never sinned while the some elect sinned and became the sinful good seed, the lost sheep and those who are called to redemption and sanctification ie, those sinful believers who are not condemned already for unbelief, Jn 3:18.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #8

Post by brianbbs67 »

I believe them to be real. As I believe God and evil to be real. What does Luke 11 say? If a man rids himself of his demon...

I also believe they have no more power than we give them. "they won't harm a hair on your head, but be not comforted by this..."

"rebuke the devil and he will flee from you" For we can command them away by Christ. According to Hebrew legend, Soloman used demon slave labor to build some of the Temple. So they weren't imaginary then to him.

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Post #9

Post by Dimmesdale »

This video basically sums up my argument in a nutshell....



"In spite of all you have done to me, I find you a pitiable man."

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Post #10

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 9 by 7homas]

Star Trek? I love the show, but don't accept it as Dogma. Come on, where's the rest?

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