The Universal Witness of Creation...

[ttruscott]

Rom 1:20 suggests everyone knows of YHWH's divinity and power so have no excuse... WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?

First, I think that the absence of the knowledge of YHWH in every culture that has not been evangelised bears witness that everyone in this life does not possess this knowledge. It seems to me that either these cultures have not received this knowledge in this life or else there is something really weird going on all over the world, for why would they all lie about it when they were questioned? And why would those who get converted later in life not expose this charade of ignorance? Surely they must have been party to it during their younger years. Surely they would find out about this knowledge at the same time as everyone else!

Therefore, because I believe that the whole world could not get it together enough to all carry on with the same lie, in all ages, in all cultures, without even communicating with each other, I just cannot accept this knowledge is possessed by everyone in this life.

Well then, having eliminated the one, we are left with only the other. This knowledge must be given and received before this life and forgotten, just like the Psalmist claims: Psalms 9:17 Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return, all the heathen that forget GOD. The theology that teaches our creation and fall before the creation of the physical universe is PCE, ie, our Pre-conception existence.

Hark! I seem to be picking up some not so faint rumblings from certain sectors regarding something called the Universal Witness of Creation, that is, it is from the witness of the things that are made, nature, (verse 20) which witness is universally received during this life, that all persons have learned the truth which they hold in unrighteousness, et cetera. Well, there may be a Universal Witness of Creation all right, but I am not at all convinced that it is received during this life. In fact, I can not help but wonder where we would be at if Paul had not told us the answer to this problem regarding how GOD can justly condemn millions of people who seemingly never hear of HIM at all during their lifetime?

In fact, I wonder why we have a problem with their seeming appearance of theological ignorance if the Witness of Creation to YHWH is so universal and blatant as some would lead us to believe it is? Frankly, I think that you are going to have to admit that these verses constitute a part of the revelation of how GOD can be just and condemn millions of men, women, children and babies who appear to have never seen, heard or known of Him during their lifetime.

I think that you will also have to admit that if these verses (and those like them) were not in the Scriptures, you would not know the answer to this problem yourself. But stop and consider for a moment. Some would have us believe that everybody who is alive knows about the very clear and blatant Witness of Creation. If everybody knows it, why does the Bible have to reveal it even to the Christians? Why does it have to be taught in every Church in every generation? Breathing does not have to be taught or revealed in the Scripture. Everybody knows about that. But hardly anyone in this life knows about the Universal Witness of Creation to YHWH until they read these verses or have it “shown" to them by the Holy Spirit or by an educated Christian.

Moreover, if there really was such a witness given to everyone during this life, may I suggest that there would also be, at all times, quite a few people in every nation who believe in YHWH simply because they looked at the creation billboard and accepted its witness that YHWH was the ONE who created it and not any other. (In actual fact, it is always YHWH who leads us to this Witness of Creation, and only after HE shows it to us do we see how it bears witness to HIM.) And there would be no need for any kind of missionary activity to proclaim the deity of YHWH, for this witness would be given to everyone twenty-four hours of each and every day.

People would not need to learn the truth about YHWH, nor would they need anyone else to remind them of it. Creation would be doing that constantly, at least, every time they used one of their senses. All people would need is the call to obey and a reminder of their fate if they continued to refuse to believe this Witness of Creation.

In addition to these short comings, the doctrine that the Universal Witness of Creation is given in this life can not account for the theological ignorance of children that die young, nor does it work for the sensually incapacitated, the blind, dumb, mentally deficient, etc. Nor does it work when we consider the doctrine that all men are spiritually blind and can't see the truth without the gracious saving light of the gospel. This doctrine of the Universal Witness of Nature says men are not blind and can see GOD without that grace.

It is also contradicted by the vanity of so many Hindus and Buddhists that spend years meditating on creation and come up with the witness that they are (could be) god: hardly a witness to YHWH and HIS judgement.

May I verily verily suggest that the Witness of Creation that we are usually told about does not exist in life in such a way that gives all unrepentant, unevangelised people sufficient conviction to render them without excuse for their rebellion.

Now there is a Witness of Creation given in this life and it comes in two major colours. For those who have no Christian training or awareness it looks like this: if it is true that creation has a Creator, that Creator must be infinitely powerful, intelligent, and eternal, hence, divine. The Witness of Creation in life to the uneducated in true religion goes little further than this. This is why all religions can look at the Witness of Creation given in this life and see testimony of their concept of god. To the educated Christian, the Witness of Creation comes in a different colour however, for to them, creation bears a very strong witness to YHWH.

But Paul was not referring to this witness when he wrote Romans. He was referring to the one that everyone received, that is, the universal one that leaves all without any excuse of ignorance.

Other Christians, who realise the shortcomings of the doctrine that the Witness of Creation is universally given in this life, often argue that the knowledge of YHWH is innate or instinctive in all persons. The trouble with this argument is that it too is simply not backed up by reality, and in two ways.

First, some missionaries that I read about claimed to have come across some people who did not have any ideas of any kind of god, hence, possessing no innate knowledge of YHWH at all.

Secondly, in those persons who supposedly have some innate knowledge of god, and as the supporters of this argument must themselves admit, it usually goes no further than the naked fact of a superior power of some sort, that is, a godness which is almost totally undefined, what definition there is being left up to the individual, and is miles away from an adequate knowledge of YHWH and HIS judgement.

Thus, even if they possessed this type of innate knowledge, on the basis of such knowledge they could hardly be charged with the sin of forgetting about or scorning YHWH's self-attesting revelation and warning.

Finally, in regard to those few individuals who claim to innately have a true knowledge of YHWH, may I suggest that it was most likely put in them in their early childhood by their Christian cultural environment or even guardian angels, but for those who are sure that they were born possessing such knowledge, I believe that preconception existence explains that fact quite nicely in that we do not always completely forget everything, that is, our memory is not erased, it is just covered over.

Therefore, although such things are buried quite deep, they are still there. I believe that this answer is much more realistic than affirming, against the mountain of evidence to the contrary, that all persons are likewise born possessing such knowledge.

In addition to the fact that the reality we live in goes against the interpretation that these theological truths are innate or universally witnessed to in this life, I think that these verses go against it themselves, in that these verses must be reinterpreted to fit such interpretations.

For example, in verse 18, “revealed� must mean much less than a real revelation. In verse 19, the same is true of the word “shewed�, and "what may be known" (literally: is known) of GOD� must mean very little indeed, rather than as much as we now know about HIM. In verse 20, “clearly seen� must be given a very limited and unclear definition, rather than the kind of understanding that satan and his angels have. “Being understood by the things that are made� must mean something between being understood at a quick glance and being understood after careful meditation and thought about the things that were made long before, rather than being understood through witnessing the very creation of these things like satan and his angels witnessed. (I am sure that they learned a lot more about GOD from witnessing the six day creation of Genesis 1:3 to 31.).

In verse 21, “knew GOD� must mean only knew about some superior power, rather than knowing YHWH personally and knowing that HE is GOD (like satan and his angels did after they put out of Paradise), and “vain� must be looked on as something each person becomes after their rebellion in life, rather than the way almost every person is born and, in the same vein, each child must be looked on as being born with an innocent heart and mind, rather than with a “reprobate mind� and a heart given over to and darkened by sin. Finally, in verse 32, “knowing the judgement of GOD� must be looked on as much less than the explicit knowledge of eternal damnation which it really is. How many persons do you know that know about their eternal damnation? But according to this verse, everyone should have a very clear knowledge of it, say like satan and his angels do.

Well, these Scriptures, as they plainly read, can not help but put the Created on Earth theorists in a difficult position. They must either reinterpret the class of men that Paul is writing about so that it does not refer to everyone who will be judged (that is, interpret it so that it includes only those who have received clear testimony to YHWH in this life and have rejected it); OR they must redefine all these attributes so that they apply to all persons, even those who die in infancy and ignorance.

These are the only real alternatives they have to accepting that the only way that these verses could be true, as they plainly read, is if every person created in the image of GOD had received this knowledge prior to their life on Earth and gained their knowledge of YHWH's divinity and power by seeing the creation of the physical universe before their very eyes and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise: Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of GOD shouted for joy?

The repressed memory syndrome started soon after when all sinners who loved sin more than the truth gave themselves over to a reprobate mind as per the rest of Romans chapter 1.

[Lusanda]

I just wish to ask before l respond....what is YHWH? I believe it's YAHWEH? Am l correct to assume as thus?

[ttruscott]

I just wish to ask before l respond....what is YHWH? I believe it's YAHWEH? Am l correct to assume as thus?

YHWH is the spelling I use for the name of my GOD, the GOD of Abraham and Christ. It is called the tetragrammaton in scripts.

The tetragrammaton; from Greek Τετ�αγ�άμματον, meaning "[consisting of] four letters"), יהוה‬ (yod hey vav hey, reading right to left) in Hebrew, and YHWH in Latin script, is the four-letter biblical name of the God of Israel. You are perhaps used to the Masoretic word for GOD which puts the vowels for Adonai or Lord onto the tetragrammaton making YAHWEH, if I am not mistaken.