When does human life begin?

[polonius]

There was an interesting article in a January issue of Newsweek describing the successful cloning of chimpanzees.

This might raise the question of human cloning.

The immediate issues involved involve birth control, the use of the "morning after pill," and embryonic cell treatment of diseases.

The key concept is when human life begins.

Opinions?

[bluethread]

RESPONSE: You need to observe what the words mean. We are talking about human personhood, not human cell life. Human life also begins when any cell in my body develops from preexisting cells.

We are observing what words mean. Personhood is a legal term concerning the recognition of rights. It is not a scientific term. Science does not endow rights, it only verifies the physical characteristics.

[polonius]

How about the The American College of Pediatricians?
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-spea ... ues/when-h...

"The American College of Pediatricians concurs with the body of scientific evidence that corroborates that a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created."

I like that term 'a unique human life'. If that is not a person...what is a person?

RESPONSE: Philosophy - a person is an ensouled human being, not merely a fertilized cell. After about two week and following implantation it may be considered to be a person.

Lets look at the terms used one more time so you can appreciate the distinction between a fertilized ovum and a human person.

You continue not to understand the definition of the terms which renders your arguments to be in error.

em·bry·o

Noun. An unborn or unhatched offspring in the process of development, in particular a human offspring during the period from approximately the second to the eighth week after fertilization (after which it is usually termed a fetus).
synonyms: fetus, fertilized egg, unborn child/baby, zygote


Introduction The essay by Thomas A. Shannon and Allan Wolter, OFM, in the December, 1990 issue of Theological Studies provides a good summary of the kinds of arguments used to support the position


"(T)he preimplantation human embryo cannot rightly be regarded as a person.It can thus serve as an introduction to our inquiry. The major claims advanced by Shannon and Wolter are the following: 1. The zygote does not possess sufficient genetic information to develop into an embryo; for this development to occur, essential information must be supplied from the mother, and this can be done only after implantation. 2. Although the zygote is the beginning of genetically distinct life, it is neither an "ontological" individual nor necessarily the precursor of one…."

A fertilized human ovum is neither a person or even an embryo. Human cells (except germ cells ) have the complete genetic complement of a human being (as do body cells which can be grown in cell culture). But these are not yet persons.

I scratched my head hard this morning a lost some of my cells which contain the my complete DNA (46 chromosomes). If I had saved them and implanted them in a uterus I might have produced a cloned human being, a twin of myself

A logical legal question then becomes am I to be considered an abortionist based on scratching my head?

A fertilized embryo is not automatically a human person. Why don't you e-mail the College of Pediatricians and ask if they disagree?

[2timothy316]

A fertilized embryo is not automatically a human person. Why don't you e-mail the College of Pediatricians and ask if they disagree?

So silly me, I've been thinking this whole time that we agreed on the English language. I guess I was wrong.

Merriam-Webster defines a person as: 'human, individual'.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

Is this your definition of a person?

I don't have to email them it's on their website.

"It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being."

"a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created."

According to the dictionary a human being is a person.

Look at that, your quoted scientist don't agree with my quoted scientist...what happens when the agreed source for facts (science) is not in agreement?

[2timothy316]

WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN?

"SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

"The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but "personhood" begins when the human being begins at fertilization."

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

Do you agree with the doctor from Princeton?

[polonius]

A fertilized embryo is not automatically a human person. Why don't you e-mail the College of Pediatricians and ask if they disagree?

So silly me, I've been thinking this whole time that we agreed on the English language. I guess I was wrong.

Merriam-Webster defines a person as: 'human, individual'.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

Is this your definition of a person?

I don't have to email them it's on their website.

"It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being."

"a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created."

According to the dictionary a human being is a person.

Look at that, your quoted scientist don't agree with my quoted scientist...what happens when the agreed source for facts (science) is not in agreement?

QUESTION: Which dictionary are you using?

[polonius]

WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN?

"SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

"The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but "personhood" begins when the human being begins at fertilization."

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

Do you agree with the doctor from Princeton?

Certainly not! She doesn't even define "personhood."

I would judge she has allowed her belief system to color her objectivity.

“Continuing her research into issues concerning the early human embryo, Dr. Irving has published, lectured and debated widely in academia, in the media, in pro-life, and in parishes on the topics of abortion, human embryo research, human cloning, stem cell research, ethics in research using human subjects, and medical ethics – including issues concerning research with the mentally ill. She is currently a Consultant for The Catholic Medical Association, a Fellow of The Linacre Institute of the Catholic Medical Association (USA), and a Consultant for the International Federation of Catholic Medical Associations (FIAMC), on medical and research ethics concerning human embryo research, human cloning, human embryonic stem cell research, and related issues.�

I believe her work is quoted on the “Renew America� website. Has she been published by US National Library of Medicine or National Institutes of Health?
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I find these writers (and others) make a more credible argument. Thy have been published by both US National Library of Medicine or National Institutes of Health
REFLECTIONS ON THE MORAL STATUS OF THE PRE-EMBRYO THOMAS A. SHANNON Worcester Polytechnic Institute and ALLAN B. WOLTER, O.F.M. Old Mission, Santa Barbara, Calif. This article is available on line at a number of different sites.
“Given the findings of modern biology, there is no evidence for the presence of a separate ontological individual until the completion of either restriction or gastrulation, which occurs around three weeks after fertilization. Therefore there is no reasonable basis for arguing that the pre-embryo is morally equivalent to a person or is a person as a basis for prohibiting abortion. That is, there is no biological support for the position that the fertilized egg is from the beginning of the process of fertilization a distinct individual needing no outside agency to develop into a person. Neither is there good philosophical evidence that the principle of immaterial individuality need be present from the beginning to explain the physical development of the pre-embryo.�

“First, we concur with Haring and particularly with the analysis of Ford that, given the biological evidence, there is no reasonable way in which the fertilized egg can be considered a physical individual minimally until after implantation. Maximally, one could argue that full individuality is not achieved until the restriction process is completed and cells have lost their totipotency. Thus the range of time for the achievement of physical individuality is between one and three weeks. One simply cannot speak, therefore, of an individual's being present from the moment of fertilization.�

[2timothy316]

A fertilized embryo is not automatically a human person. Why don't you e-mail the College of Pediatricians and ask if they disagree?

So silly me, I've been thinking this whole time that we agreed on the English language. I guess I was wrong.

Merriam-Webster defines a person as: 'human, individual'.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person

Is this your definition of a person?

I don't have to email them it's on their website.

"It is clear that from the time of cell fusion, the embryo consists of elements (from both maternal and paternal origin) which function interdependently in a coordinated manner to carry on the function of the development of the human organism. From this definition, the single-celled embryo is not just a cell, but an organism, a living being, a human being."

"a unique human life starts when the sperm and egg bind to each other in a process of fusion of their respective membranes and a single hybrid cell called a zygote, or one-cell embryo, is created."

According to the dictionary a human being is a person.

Look at that, your quoted scientist don't agree with my quoted scientist...what happens when the agreed source for facts (science) is not in agreement?

QUESTION: Which dictionary are you using?

Merriam-Webster. It was noted in my post, along with a link. Are we about to begin a dictionary contest? Please don't tell me there is a war coming over reference sources.

Here is another one...
Oxford Dictionary - Person: "A human being regarded as an individual"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/person

and another one...
Macmillan Dictionary - Person: "an individual human, usually an adult."
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/ ... can/person

[2timothy316]

WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN?

"SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

"The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but "personhood" begins when the human being begins at fertilization."

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

Do you agree with the doctor from Princeton?

Certainly not! She doesn't even define "personhood."

I would judge she has allowed her belief system to color her objectivity.

Your words, "I would judge", that sounds like you have a strong feelings on the matter....are you making facts out of feelings? If I remember correctly you said and I quote from post 55...

Deal with the evidence, not how it makes you feel.

Your judging her is based on your belief system.

[polonius]

Perhaps you overlooked the key word in both of these definitions, ie. "person".

Oxford Dictionary - Person: "A human being regarded as an individual"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/person

and another one...
Macmillan Dictionary - Person: "an individual human, usually an adult."
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/ ... can/person

[2timothy316]

Perhaps you overlooked the key word in both of these definitions, ie. "person".

Oxford Dictionary - Person: "A human being regarded as an individual"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/person

and another one...
Macmillan Dictionary - Person: "an individual human, usually an adult."
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/ ... can/person

Professor Emeritus of Human Embryology of the University of Arizona School of Medicine, Dr. C. Ward Kischer, affirms that “Every human embryologist, worldwide, states that the life of the new individual human being begins at fertilization (conception).�


Eberl JT. The beginning of personhood: A Thomistic biological analysis. Bioethics. 2000;14(2):134-157. Quote is from page 135.
“As far as human ‘life’ per se, it is, for the most part, uncontroversial among the scientific and philosophical community that life begins at the moment when the genetic information contained in the sperm and ovum combine to form a genetically unique cell.�

'Unique' as noun: "a unique person or thing"
as an adjective: "being the only one of its kind"

'Individual' as a noun "being an individual or existing as an indivisible whole"

Do you agree?

BTW I can spit these doctor's and scientist quotes at you for hours. I have a whole arsenal of quotes ready to go. When should we stop? Why should we keep throwing quotes at each other? Do you think you're going to change my mind? I certainly don't think I'm going to change yours. I'm only putting these quotes up here for others who might right this thread to show that your 'science' is really your dogma and it is contested strongly by the embryology community.