When does human life begin?

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polonius
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When does human life begin?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

There was an interesting article in a January issue of Newsweek describing the successful cloning of chimpanzees.

This might raise the question of human cloning.

The immediate issues involved involve birth control, the use of the "morning after pill," and embryonic cell treatment of diseases.

The key concept is when human life begins.

Opinions?

polonius
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Post #71

Post by polonius »

2timothy316 wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN?

"SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

"The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but "personhood" begins when the human being begins at fertilization."

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

Do you agree with the doctor from Princeton?
Certainly not! She doesn't even define "personhood."

I would judge she has allowed her belief system to color her objectivity.
Your words, "I would judge", that sounds like you have a strong feelings on the matter....are you making facts out of feelings? If I remember correctly you said and I quote from post 55...
polonius.advice wrote: Deal with the evidence, not how it makes you feel. ;)
Your judging her is based on your belief system.
RESPONSE: Of course. My belief system is based on my study and laboratory experience. I wouldn't call a single cell a person unless it was a person. :idea:

Otherwise it remains a cell. In short, something more has to be added that it does not already have.

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Post #72

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polonius.advice wrote:
polonius.advice wrote: Deal with the evidence, not how it makes you feel. ;)
RESPONSE: Of course. My belief system is based on my study and laboratory experience. I wouldn't call a single cell a person unless it was a person. :idea:

Otherwise it remains a cell. In short, something more has to be added that it does not already have.
Then your conclusion is not scientific fact but a feeling you have. So you don't listen to your own advice.

Her feelings and belief system is based on her study and lab experience, she doesn't support your conclusion. Is it possible as she is in embryology she has seen something that you have not?....so now what? Who's going to be the referee to make the final call as to who's conclusion is right and who's is wrong?

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Post #73

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polonius.advice wrote:
RESPONSE: Of course. My belief system is based on my study and laboratory experience. I wouldn't call a single cell a person unless it was a person. :idea:

Otherwise it remains a cell. In short, something more has to be added that it does not already have.
What is added to the zygote to make it into a blastomere?

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The mother's contribution to the development of a human pers

Post #74

Post by polonius »

bluethread wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:
RESPONSE: Of course. My belief system is based on my study and laboratory experience. I wouldn't call a single cell a person unless it was a person. :idea:

Otherwise it remains a cell. In short, something more has to be added that it does not already have.
What is added to the zygote to make it into a blastomere?
RESPONSE:

I think you are really asking what is added to the blastocystby the mother's uterus that is necessary for the development of a zygote to a human person. (The blastomere is a developmental stage beyond the zygote).

“Between 5 and 8 days after fertilization, the blastocyst attaches to the lining of the uterus, usually near the top. This process, called implantation, is completed by day 9 or 10.

“The wall of the blastocyst is one cell thick except in one area, where it is three to four cells thick. The inner cells in the thickened area develop into the embryo, and the outer cells burrow into the wall of the uterus and develop into the placenta. The placenta produces several hormones that help maintain the pregnancy. For example, the placenta produces human chorionic gonadotropin, which prevents the ovaries from releasing eggs and stimulates the ovaries to produce estrogen and progesterone continuously. The placenta also carries oxygen and nutrients from mother to fetus and waste materials from fetus to mother.


“Some of the cells from the placenta develop into an outer layer of membranes (chorion) around the developing blastocyst. Other cells develop into an inner layer of membranes (amnion), which form the amniotic sac. When the sac is formed (by about day 10 to 12), the blastocyst is considered an embryo. The amniotic sac fills with a clear liquid (amniotic fluid) and expands to envelop the developing embryo, which floats within it.�

You might enjoy this on-line Merck manual
www.merckmanuals.com › Home › Women's Health Issues › Normal Pregnancy


Also, “Is the placenta made by the embryo or the mother?
This disc of embryonic cells plus the mother's underlying uterine lining, connected to the fetus by the umbilical cord, is the placenta. The mother's blood provides oxygen and nourishment to the rapidly growing fetus and removes waste products such as carbon dioxide and urea.

In short, no mother's uterus, no new human person. Fathers don't provide the nutrients to the zygote. Curiously the Bible teaches that the "seed" comes from the father and the nutrients for development come from the mother if she is "fertile" or not if she is "barren."

So if the fertilized egg isn't implanted in the mother, it does not developer into a human person.

Apparently, Dr. Irving overlooks these facts. Perhaps you should e-mail her. I believe her e-mail address in included in her on-line biography.
Last edited by polonius on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post #75

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2timothy316 wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:
polonius.advice wrote: Deal with the evidence, not how it makes you feel. ;)
RESPONSE: Of course. My belief system is based on my study and laboratory experience. I wouldn't call a single cell a person unless it was a person. :idea:

Otherwise it remains a cell. In short, something more has to be added that it does not already have.
Then your conclusion is not scientific fact but a feeling you have. So you don't listen to your own advice.

Her feelings and belief system is based on her study and lab experience, she doesn't support your conclusion. Is it possible as she is in embryology she has seen something that you have not?....so now what? Who's going to be the referee to make the final call as to who's conclusion is right and who's is wrong?
RESPONSE: Her "facts" are rather incomplete. See previous post.

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Post #76

Post by brianbbs67 »

My simple question would be, what is created when a sperm penetrates the outer wall of the egg? Is it life or death?

polonius
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Human cell life is not always a human person.

Post #77

Post by polonius »

brianbbs67 wrote: My simple question would be, what is created when a sperm penetrates the outer wall of the egg? Is it life or death?
RESPONSE: I'm afraid you have fallen into the "either-or" fallacy of reasoning.

In 1938 a popular newspaper claimed," Europe would either go democratic or communist." But in fact it went fascist.

But if we stick with your "either-or" question, the answer is "cell life" but not yet a person.

A seed is not yet a tree! :)

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Post #78

Post by 2timothy316 »

polonius.advice wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:
polonius.advice wrote: Deal with the evidence, not how it makes you feel. ;)
RESPONSE: Of course. My belief system is based on my study and laboratory experience. I wouldn't call a single cell a person unless it was a person. :idea:

Otherwise it remains a cell. In short, something more has to be added that it does not already have.
Then your conclusion is not scientific fact but a feeling you have. So you don't listen to your own advice.

Her feelings and belief system is based on her study and lab experience, she doesn't support your conclusion. Is it possible as she is in embryology she has seen something that you have not?....so now what? Who's going to be the referee to make the final call as to who's conclusion is right and who's is wrong?
RESPONSE: Her "facts" are rather incomplete. See previous post.
She doesn't think so. Perhaps you should be emailing her and you can tell her how you feel about it. I have examined both sides and I personally already made my choice as to who is right and who is wrong Your evidence is insufficient to change my mind. Good day!

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Do you believe all viable human cells are persons?

Post #79

Post by polonius »

In all humans, each cell normally contains 23 pairs of chromosomes, for a total of 46.

Do you then believe that human cells grown in a petri dish are human persons?

You are certainly free to believe that each cell is a human person. In the same way, you are free to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

But I believe that the evidence shows that you would be wrong in all three cases.

(To be consistent, some of those of the pro-life persuasion would have to believe that those researchers working with human cell cultures are abortionists.)

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