Is the day of the paid “shepherd� coming to an end? Ez3

[showme]

Is the day of the paid “shepherd� coming to an end? (Ezekiel 34:10-13)

Is the day of the paid “shepherd� , those living off the fat of the sheep, coming to an end? ( Ezekiel 34:10) Is it true that the “shepherds with no understanding� (Isaiah 56:11), will actually be thrown out on their ears. Is there no justice? How will they survive? They probably have no skills, and McDonalds probably doesn’t need any more help. While it looks bad for the “shepherds� it doesn’t look much better for the lost sheep (Jeremiah 16:18). Will there only be one leader? (Matthew 23:10) Will Paul’s appointed leaders be discarded? Heaven forbid, what will happen to all those steepled buildings?

Ezekiel 34:10 Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.�’�
11: For thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.(Jeremiah 16:16-18)
12: “As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.(Ezekiel 36:22-24)
13“I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. (Ezekiel 37:15-28)

Jeremiah 16: 16“Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen,� declares the LORD, “and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks.
17“For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.
18“I will first doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable idols and with their abominations.�

[onewithhim]

All this gathering of sheep talk is about God reclaiming the lost tribes from all the corners of the Earth, as He said He would. Even if they had other gods,etc.etc.

Has little to do with Paul other than Paul did expect the mission money on Sunday without having to ask for it. OP, I too am suspicious of some of Paul's sayings, but I don't see it relating to God reclaiming Isreal's descendants. That will happen regardless of Paul or any other shepard. It is His will.

Sorry, Brian, but I disagree. The gathering of the sheep is referring to all of the people, in every nation, who hear Christ's voice and want to follow him. Certainly God does not go back on His word that He will not tolerate any worship of false gods. Anyone who insists on this will be considered a goat.

The money that Paul hoped to see was for the aid to needy congregation members, not himself.

[showme]

All this gathering of sheep talk is about God reclaiming the lost tribes from all the corners of the Earth, as He said He would. Even if they had other gods,etc.etc.

Has little to do with Paul other than Paul did expect the mission money on Sunday without having to ask for it. OP, I too am suspicious of some of Paul's sayings, but I don't see it relating to God reclaiming Isreal's descendants. That will happen regardless of Paul or any other shepard. It is His will.

Sorry, Brian, but I disagree. The gathering of the sheep is referring to all of the people, in every nation, who hear Christ's voice and want to follow him. Certainly God does not go back on His word that He will not tolerate any worship of false gods. Anyone who insists on this will be considered a goat.

The money that Paul hoped to see was for the aid to needy congregation members, not himself.

With respect to Ezekiel 34:1-2, the “word of the LORD came to me saying, ‘Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel’…. Woe shepherds of Israel’ �. This is with respect to the “house of Israel� (Ezekiel 36:22-24), for which “I will take you from all the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you onto your own land.� That hasn’t happened yet. Only Judah has been restored (Joel 3:1). Nor has “My servant David� been set over them as the “one shepherd�, nor has the “Lord God� judged between the “fat sheep and the lean sheep� (Ez 34:20-23).

As for the nations, they indeed do have gods. As for the “house of Israel�/Ephraim (Hosea 5:1), they are under judgment (Hosea4:15- 5:11) because they also had and have false gods. The “goats� are most probably the “shepherds� who apparently do not “feed the flock�/sheep (Ez 34:3). As for hearing “Christ’s voice�, and following him, that is different from hearing the voice of the false prophet Paul and following him. As best I can remember, Paul was collecting money for Jerusalem, and Paul wasn’t welcomed in Jerusalem. 1 Cor 16:2

1 Cor 16:1Now about the collection for the saints, you are to do as I directed the churches of Galatia: 2On the first day of every week, each of you should set aside a portion of his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will be needed. 3Then, on my arrival, I will send letters with those you recommend to carry your gift to Jerusalem.…

[showme]

God never order the "shepherds who have no understanding" to be paid, who already "turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" (Isaiah 56:11). You are confusing the false prophet Paul with God.

Unless you are suggesting that Paul wrote the book of Numbers, I don’t think that I was making any reference to Paul.

Number 18:21 is for Levites. Are you an ox or a Levite?

Numbers 18:21 is for Levites. The “shepherds� mentioned in Ezekiel were Levites. If you are saying that they should not have been paid at all then you are going against the command of God.

The false prophet Paul wrote 1 Timothy 5:18, which pushed the idea of him and his appointed leaders and pastors being paid. I had assumed by my asking if you were an ox, that you were familiar with your teacher's teachings. Sorry, I should have been more explicit, and should not have assumed you knew Paul’s teachings. I would suggest that if you want wages, become a servant (wage earner), as Paul paraphrased from (Dt 24:15), or a Levite, and keeper of the ordinances of God. (Ez 37:24)

In fact, Paul demonstrated what the "shepherds" should do, and the true shepherds do so even today: "Because he had the same trade, he stayed at their home [Aquila & Priscilla's] and worked with them, for they were tent-makers by trade." (Acts 18:3)

I don't think that Scripture was referring to shepherds being paid, and Paul was certainly not a false prophet. How can you call a man who was hand-picked by Jesus himself a false prophet? You are treading on slippery ground.


He also said, "You yourselves know that these hands have provided for my own needs and the needs of those with me." (Acts 20:34)

A far cry, I have concluded, from wanting to be paid.

If Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, then he should be giving his tithes to the Levites, as required by Law. Why was he needed to be a middle man for the transfer of money to Jerusalem, he wasn’t even welcomed in Jerusalem. (Numbers 18:24)


As for “true shepherds� let us let the LORD decide that fact. As per Ez 34:23, all the shepherds would be replace with the one shepherd, “My servant David� (Ez 34:23). As for the so called “Christian� shepherds, they rely on the Law to establish their support of a 10% tithe, which is meant for the Levites, and not the Gentiles. (Numbers 18:24) One problem with the “shepherds� per Ez 34:4, was that they could not heal the diseased. The “Christian� shepherds not only take the Levite tithes, but they cannot heal the sick. They can’t heal themselves, much less the sick sheep. If the shepherds had anything to give, they were supposed to give freely that which they had received freely, and heal the sick. (Matthew 10:7) I don’t want to be too premature, but start looking for rocks to hide under (Revelation 6:12-17). It appears that “Christians� are “released from the Law� (Romans 7:6), except when it comes time to pay the piper.

As for Paul being “hand picked by Jesus himself�, give me a break. That was according to Paul’s own self testimony. According to Yeshua, “self testimony� , is “not true� (John 5:31). Paul was picked by the “the LORD my God� to “pasture the flock doomed to slaughter� (Zechariah 11:4-7). Paul was denoted by the “staff� called “Favor�, for his false gospel of grace (Zech 11:10). Peter was denoted as the staff "Cord", and the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:16-17).

Numbers 18:…23"Only the Levites shall perform the service of the tent of meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, and among the sons of Israel they shall have no inheritance. 24"For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, 'They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.'"

Matthew 10:7As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 9Do not carry any gold or silver or copper in your belts.…

[JehovahsWitness]

As for Paul being “hand picked by Jesus himself�, give me a break. That was according to Paul’s own self testimony

So your bible only has 53 books in it - having removed the - 13 books written by Paul? Actually, 52 since Paul's encounter with Jesus is in the book of Acts, written by Luke ( a travelling companion of Paul).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 21 by showme]

Do you not remember that the Law given to Moses was "taken out of the way" when Jesus died on the 'cross'? Jesus fulfilled the Law. The nation needed not to be under the curse of the Law any more.

Jesus has "taken it out of the way by nailing it to the stake." (Colossians2:14)

"I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill [the Law]." (Matthew 5:17)

"Now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6)

"In his saying 'a new covenant,' he has made the former one obsolete." (Heb.8:13)

"Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: 'Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.'" (Galatians 3:13)


Therefore, the Levitical priesthood was no longer in force. Jesus is enough of a High Priest to stand in for every Levitical priest. (See Hebrews 9:11,12.)

Paul was right to give aid to the needy people in the congregations.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 21 by showme]

Mistaken repeat.

[showme]

[Replying to post 21 by showme]

Do you not remember that the Law given to Moses was "taken out of the way" when Jesus died on the 'cross'? Jesus fulfilled the Law. The nation needed not to be under the curse of the Law any more.

Jesus has "taken it out of the way by nailing it to the stake." (Colossians2:14)

"I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill [the Law]." (Matthew 5:17)

"Now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6)

"In his saying 'a new covenant,' he has made the former one obsolete." (Heb.8:13)

"Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: 'Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.'" (Galatians 3:13)


Therefore, the Levitical priesthood was no longer in force. Jesus is enough of a High Priest to stand in for every Levitical priest. (See Hebrews 9:11,12.)

Paul was right to give aid to the needy people in the congregations.

[showme]

[Replying to post 23 by onewithhim]

I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill [the Law]." (Matthew 5:17)

You are arguing against yourself by quoting 5:17. As for quoting the false prophet Paul (Mt 7:15), you are not making your case. As for collecting money, the reasoning given by Paul, was to send it by someone else to Jerusalem. Of course everyone in Jerusalem doesn't appear to care for Paul, as apparently many had vowed to kill him. Paul is like the Pharisees who go from city to city, and make their converts worse sons of hell them himself. (Mt 23:15)

New American Standard Bible Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


New American Standard Bible Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 23 by onewithhim]

I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill [the Law]." (Matthew 5:17)

You are arguing against yourself by quoting 5:17. As for quoting the false prophet Paul (Mt 7:15), you are not making your case. As for collecting money, the reasoning given by Paul, was to send it by someone else to Jerusalem. Of course everyone in Jerusalem doesn't appear to care for Paul, as apparently many had vowed to kill him. Paul is like the Pharisees who go from city to city, and make their converts worse sons of hell them himself. (Mt 23:15)

New American Standard Bible Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


New American Standard Bible Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

How am I arguing against myself by quoting Matthew 5:17? It says clearly that Jesus fulfilled the Law. Doesn't that mean that the Law was completely dealt with and no longer held sway over the heads of the people who were under its curse for centuries?

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." (Galatians 3:13, KJV)

How do you get around that?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 26 by onewithhim]

Miriam Webster has this take on fulfill. 2 and 3 should hit the point.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill