How is science different then "feeling" God?

Tart · Post by **Tart** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:43 pm

How is observational science, being based on how we perceive our universe and how we make sense of those perceptions, any different then someone who believes in God because they "feel" his presence?

Tired of the Nonsense · Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:06 pm

Tart wrote: ok... Do you have any evidence atheism is accurate and correct?

YES! The fact that God refuses to intervene in real world life and death situations but instead acts exactly like a God who isn't there, is about as much evidence as one could possibly expect to prove that something is not true. Atheists doubt the existence of God, and when push comes to shove no actual God can actually be discerned. That is about as close to to an empirical scientific experiment as could be hoped for when one is trying to prove or disprove a negative.

So I ask you... what difference is there between a God who invariably acts like a God who doesn't exist... and a God who never existed to begin with?

Tart · Post by **Tart** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:10 pm

[Replying to post 121 by Tired of the Nonsense]

So, you mean, God not revealing himself to you personally... right? You are speaking as if that is the case for everyone in all of existence... But to you personally, God hasnt intervened... (which is ignoring evidence of others, like Paul for example)...

Your evidence is you havent seen him? You ever see a black hole?

Tired of the Nonsense · Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:03 pm

Tart wrote: [Replying to post 121 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Tart wrote: So, you mean, God not revealing himself to you personally... right? You are speaking as if that is the case for everyone in all of existence... But to you personally, God hasnt intervened... (which is ignoring evidence of others, like Paul for example)...
No, I mean that when push comes to shove and a Supreme Being would really come in handy, God inevitably acts exactly like a God who never existed to begin with.
What exactly is the difference?

Tart wrote: Your evidence is you havent seen him? You ever see a black hole?
Black holes were first hypothesized as a natural consequence of relativity. The math said that black holes were inevitable. Then it became apparent that a black hole accreting material from it surroundings, eating other stars to be precise, would heat the material as it fell into the black hole, causing it to shine in x rays. X Ray sources are all over the universe. They use to be a question mark. But now it is recognised that the centers of most galaxies shine brightly in x rays. The signature of supermassive black holes. So it turns out that black holes aren't necessarily invisible at all.

And now you have seen a black hole too.

Tart · Post by **Tart** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 pm

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Tart wrote: [Replying to post 121 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Tart wrote: So, you mean, God not revealing himself to you personally... right? You are speaking as if that is the case for everyone in all of existence... But to you personally, God hasnt intervened... (which is ignoring evidence of others, like Paul for example)...
No, I mean that when push comes to shove and a Supreme Being would really come in handy, God inevitably acts exactly like a God who never existed to begin with.
What exactly is the difference?
If God's actions, or non-action, would contradict His nature... Then that would be concerning... But the fact that God doesn't appear to YOU, to prove to YOU in your nonbelief, that he exists... That just isnt His nature..

In fact, scripture says that for those who seek will find, and those who refuse to see the truth will believe the lie (that there is no God)...

So when you claim God didnt reveal himself to you... I believe you... I believe that is true.. And it is consistent with God and his nature... So claiming therefor God doesnt exist is not a justified conclusion... It is just your beliefs...

Tired of the Nonsense · Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:52 am

Tart wrote:
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Tart wrote: [Replying to post 121 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Tart wrote: So, you mean, God not revealing himself to you personally... right? You are speaking as if that is the case for everyone in all of existence... But to you personally, God hasnt intervened... (which is ignoring evidence of others, like Paul for example)...
No, I mean that when push comes to shove and a Supreme Being would really come in handy, God inevitably acts exactly like a God who never existed to begin with.
What exactly is the difference?
If God's actions, or non-action, would contradict His nature... Then that would be concerning... But the fact that God doesn't appear to YOU, to prove to YOU in your nonbelief, that he exists... That just isnt His nature..

In fact, scripture says that for those who seek will find, and those who refuse to see the truth will believe the lie (that there is no God)...

So when you claim God didnt reveal himself to you... I believe you... I believe that is true.. And it is consistent with God and his nature... So claiming therefor God doesnt exist is not a justified conclusion... It is just your beliefs...
NO! I wasn't at Sandy Hook. I wasn't in Goshen Alabama when a tornado hit a church during Sunday services, killing 20 people in the very act of worshiping God, including six children. You keep implying that I don't believe in God because He hasn't shown Himself to ME. Which He hasn't. But that's not the point I am making here. God doesn't show Himself AT ALL in moments of crisis, when an actual Supreme Being would really come in handy. And a God who will not show Himself to his followers in their moment of supreme need is no different from a God who never existed to begin with.

You want proof that there is no God? A God who is not there is the same thing as a God who was never there. How do we go about proving a negative? How do we prove that something doesn't exist? That is as close to proof that no God exists as we might expect to find. Or you could try sitting in front of your fireplace all Christmas eve waiting to see if Santa emerges. And if he doesn't, you might consider that proof of SOMETHING!

Post by **DrNoGods** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:41 am

[Replying to post 124 by Tart]

In fact, scripture says that for those who seek will find, and those who refuse to see the truth will believe the lie (that there is no God)...

That is a convenient, but completely vague statement as far as supporting the existence of the god you believe exists. First, it is yet another bibilical reference which doesn't count as any sort of proof or support for a claim. Second, it is also impossible to verify or test so it doesn't fall under any umbrella of science no matter how big that umbrella is, so carries no weight in this section of the website. It is simply a paraphrased quote from a holy book about someone's subjective feelings, and is inarguable for that reason.

So claiming therefor God doesnt exist is not a justified conclusion... It is just your beliefs...

To repeat the simple position most atheists have on this issue, it is the lack of evidence for any gods that is the strongest support for believing they do not exist. If a god could "reveal" itself in any other way besides via the personal, subjective feelings of someone who thinks they have experiences that they can attribute to a god, then that would be reason to reconsider the atheist position. Do you have any examples of a god revealing itself in any tangible way ... something that could be verified directly, or inferred from physical evidence of some kind, etc. etc.? Got anything at all to offer?

Tart · Post by **Tart** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:29 pm

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Tart wrote:
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Tart wrote: [Replying to post 121 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Tart wrote: So, you mean, God not revealing himself to you personally... right? You are speaking as if that is the case for everyone in all of existence... But to you personally, God hasnt intervened... (which is ignoring evidence of others, like Paul for example)...
No, I mean that when push comes to shove and a Supreme Being would really come in handy, God inevitably acts exactly like a God who never existed to begin with.
What exactly is the difference?
If God's actions, or non-action, would contradict His nature... Then that would be concerning... But the fact that God doesn't appear to YOU, to prove to YOU in your nonbelief, that he exists... That just isnt His nature..

In fact, scripture says that for those who seek will find, and those who refuse to see the truth will believe the lie (that there is no God)...

So when you claim God didnt reveal himself to you... I believe you... I believe that is true.. And it is consistent with God and his nature... So claiming therefor God doesnt exist is not a justified conclusion... It is just your beliefs...
NO! I wasn't at Sandy Hook. I wasn't in Goshen Alabama when a tornado hit a church during Sunday services, killing 20 people in the very act of worshiping God, including six children. You keep implying that I don't believe in God because He hasn't shown Himself to ME. Which He hasn't. But that's not the point I am making here. God doesn't show Himself AT ALL in moments of crisis, when an actual Supreme Being would really come in handy. And a God who will not show Himself to his followers in their moment of supreme need is no different from a God who never existed to begin with.

You want proof that there is no God? A God who is not there is the same thing as a God who was never there. How do we go about proving a negative? How do we prove that something doesn't exist? That is as close to proof that no God exists as we might expect to find. Or you could try sitting in front of your fireplace all Christmas eve waiting to see if Santa emerges. And if he doesn't, you might consider that proof of SOMETHING!
Yet still, God told us there is be death, disease, famine, and war... To stay strong for these things must happen before the end comes..

Therefor these things are certainly not evidence against His design...

Tired of the Nonsense · Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 pm

[Replying to post 127 by Tart]

Tart wrote: Yet still, God told us there is be death, disease, famine, and war... To stay strong for these things must happen before the end comes..

Therefor these things are certainly not evidence against His design...

God NEVER speaks to anyone. Anyone who hears voices in their head is troubled. The Bible was written by humans, as was the Qur'an, and all of the various other religious books that claim to be the Word of God. It's all make believe.

That's a very scary and unacceptable thought to many people. I understand that.

Tart · Post by **Tart** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:18 pm

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: [Replying to post 127 by Tart]

Tart wrote: Yet still, God told us there is be death, disease, famine, and war... To stay strong for these things must happen before the end comes..

Therefor these things are certainly not evidence against His design...
God NEVER speaks to anyone. Anyone who hears voices in their head is troubled. The Bible was written by humans, as was the Qur'an, and all of the various other religious books that claim to be the Word of God. It's all make believe.

That's a very scary and unacceptable thought to many people. I understand that.

Are you prepared to prove that?

Tired of the Nonsense · Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:14 am

Tart wrote:
Tired of the Nonsense wrote: [Replying to post 127 by Tart]

Tart wrote: Yet still, God told us there is be death, disease, famine, and war... To stay strong for these things must happen before the end comes..

Therefor these things are certainly not evidence against His design...
God NEVER speaks to anyone. Anyone who hears voices in their head is troubled. The Bible was written by humans, as was the Qur'an, and all of the various other religious books that claim to be the Word of God. It's all make believe.

That's a very scary and unacceptable thought to many people. I understand that.
Are you prepared to prove that?

Once again you are challenging me to prove a negative. But the ball should be in your court this time. So show me some actual convincing evidence that should convince any reasonable person that the corpse of Jesus actually returned to life and subsequently flew away. If you can do that then it should be easy to build a case that everything else you are declaring to be true is, at the very least, plausible. A claim should be at least plausible, wouldn't you agree?