The New World Translation does not change John 1:1

[EastwardTraveler]

Here is a thread I started on another forum, but wanted to put it up here as well. I am new here, but I am already enjoying this forum much better. Less trolls and better discussion and attitudes.
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This is a response to a tread about John 1:1 and how the New World Translation corrects this mistake about calling the Word "God". The NWT claims to fix this issue by calling the Word "a god". Next the assertion is there are many gods in the Bible and being a god is different than being God, implying that God is not a god. Being a god is said to be more of a title or status, and nothing could be further from the truth.

First there is a word play here does not exist in the Hebrew. There is no capitalization in Hebrew, so in English terms, there is no big or little g. The context of the scripture would have let the reader know which god is being talked about. Even from a grammatical point of view this changes nothing. Here is what I mean. It is grammatically correct and scripturally correct for me to say that "God is a god". God is just a proper pronoun letting us know which god we are talking about. A god is not a status but the nature of something. God is a god because he happens to be a spiritually divine being.

So changing John 1:1 does not change the problem of the Word being called God. You are still left with a big problem of the identity of Jesus if he was by nature an elohim.

The next tactic that will be used to to bring up that there are many gods in the Bible. This is a silly argument, because all of the other gods of the Bible are false gods or men calling themselves gods. Neither of the two pleases God, so I find it odd that this is used to justify the Word being called a god/elohim and he not be God. Lets break it down even further. Just because men made up gods and created images to them, does not make them a real god. Same if a man calls himself or another person a god, it does not make them a true god. Again this does not please God to do so.

Here is my beleif, that God/elohim is the only real god/elohim in the scriptures. All other gods/elohim are false gods/elohim. No where in scripture is it a good thing to be call a god/elohim if the thing being talked about is not God himself.

While I started off mentioning The NWT I am eager to hear from all who do not believe that Jesus is God, not just Jehovahs Witness. I prefer not to hear from Trinitarians and Unitarians on this post, but ultimately am not opposed to it.

My last request is that for those responding, try and keep it short. I do not want a page of verses quoted and a dissertation on each on. Lets try and keep it to a verse or two at a time so we can actually have a discussion that is meaningful.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from all of you out there.

[JehovahsWitness]

So here are my questions about Ezekial 28. Why is the leader of Tyre being punished for calling himself a god? If all a god simply is, is a mere position of power and authority, why is Jehovah mad.

QUESTION : How are we to understand Ezekiel chapter 28 v 9

The king of Tyre was not punished merely "for calling himself a god" the king of Tyre was being punished for adopting a haughty attitude and pitting his authority against that of YHWH the Almighty.

• Verse 2 of that same chapter reads "Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: Because your heart has become haughty, you keep saying, ‘I am a god. ..", verse 5 "And your heart grew haughty because of your wealth.â€�

So clearly there was something about the King's haughty heart condition, meaning his attitude and thinking, that was displeasing to YHWH.

People can call imaginary beings, idols, and men gods all day long, but THAT...DOES..NOT..MAKE..YOU..ONE. That is the point I've been trying to make the whole time.

Calling yourself elohim might make you one or it might not, depending on whether anyone believes you or not. If anyone, including the person himself, views a thing, person idol or himself as elohim then yes, that does make them one! That's how it goes in scripture, if anyone views something or someone as elohim (god) they do indeed become elohim. They do not however become YHWH the Almighty nor do they by their declaration procure the right to be worshipped.

[The king of Tyre] was not even a Jew and under the law. If he was a leader of a people or city, he already had authority and power so why is it bad to claim that in his heart?

NOTE Jehovah remains the supreme ruler of the universe and reserves the right to judge whoever He so pleases on whatever basis he sees fit. If He feels any individual in his universe is acting untoward, he can judge that one, this was the case for the King of Tyre (and later the pagan king Nebuchadnezzar), both of whom failed to recognize the superiority of the greatest elohim, YHWH- see below

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EACH ELOHIM MUST KNOW HIS PLACE

EXODUS 7:1
And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - Darby Bible Translation

Since, as this scripture demonstrates, Jehovah himself can make a mere human elohim (a god/God) and has done so, the problem cannot of tninking of oneself as elohim, but, as we have I think agreed anyone or anything that is placed in the unique position to be occupied by elohim YHWH/JEHOVAH is problematic. So while while Moses was made by JEHOVAH/YHWH elohim (meaning he, (Moses) was given authority over Pharoah) if Moses had taken his "godship" and thought or acted in a way that suggested he (Moses) considered himself equal to YHWH, then that would be a problem.

"Because in your heart you feel that you are a god" - Ezekiel 28:6

In view of the above we can understand the statement " Because in your heart you feel that you are a god" (Ez 28:6). Although YAHWEH /Jehovah has tolerated or even appointed elohim, it is an offense if anyone of them claimed to occupy a position exclusive to Him YHWH. The king of Tyre evidently had stared thinking of himself as an elohim in the absolute sense, ie an elohim of absolute authority in absolute securit . This would make him a elohim (god) to rival YHWH. How did Jehovah respond?

EZELIEL 28:9,10
Will you still say, ‘I am a god,’ to the one killing you? You will be a mere man, not a god, in the hand of those defiling you.�’ ‘By the hand of foreigners, you will die the death of the uncircumcised one

♦CONCLUSION: It seems clear that YHWH was mad at the king of Tyre, not simply for viewing himself as elohim (something JEHOVAH/YHWH has tolerated or even encouraged depending on the context), but for his haughty attitude. Ezekiel 28:9 highlights the fact that the King will be made to realize no one except YHWH is invincibe.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Never said there was only one elohim. I have said over and over again that there are many elohim...

The scribe quotes Isaiah 45:21 saying there is no other elohim and Jesus responds saying, "you are not far from the Kingdom"

♦ So how do you reconcile the two ideas? You say there are "many elohim" but you know that Isaiah states "there is no other elohim [but YHWH]."

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay then in Greek Satan is THE GOD. Your point?

Does that not violate Isaiah 43:10. 43:10 is not just about worship but no other Gods were created before or after Jehovah, yet there is one. Isaiah 45:5 says there are not other Gods.

ISAIAH 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God - ESV

QUESTION: Since the bible both refers to pagan gods and says there is no God besides YHWH (Jehovah) is this a contradiction?

• No, "no other" (as found in Isaiah 43:10 and 45:5) is highlighting that YHWH is "alone" in his position as the elohim deservjng of worship. The one personage that holds the position of supreme ruler of the universe (compare John 17:3). The expression "there is no other [God]" therefore should be understood in a relative sense not in the absolute (ie no other god that compares to YHWH/Jehovah) rather than no other existing gods (elohim) - compare 1 Cor 8:5; Rev 4:11

JW

[brianbbs67]

What about Isaiah 46:9 JPS ...for I am God, and there is none else, I am divine, and there is none like Me.?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 53 by brianbbs67]

ISAIAH 44:6
"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

ISAIAH 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God - ESV

ISAIAH 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me. KJV

HOSEA 13:4
Yet I am Yahweh your God from the land of Egypt; and you shall acknowledge no god but me, and besides me there is no savior - World English Bible

QUESTION: Since the bible both refers to pagan gods and says there is no God besides YHWH (Jehovah) is this a contradiction?

• No, "no other" (as found in Isaiah 43:10 and 45:5 and other scriptures) is highlighting that YHWH is "alone" in his position as the elohim deservjng of worship. The one personage that holds the position of supreme ruler of the universe (compare John 17:3). The expression "there is no other [God]" therefore should be understood in a relative sense not in the absolute (ie no other god that compares to YHWH/Jehovah) rather than no other existing gods (elohim) - compare 1 Cor 8:5; Rev 4:11

NO OTHER TO BE WORSHIPPED

The Israelites were commanded not to "know" (worship) or "acknowledge" (Hos 13:4) or any other God (elohim) but YHWH as being theirs (ie the one that saved them and the one to whom they must offer exclusive devotion). They were to recognize that the god (elohim) YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) was unique amongst all the other elohim, (ie that there was "none like him" (compare Isaiah 44:7a, 46:9b), none equal to him and none that is comparable to him in positon, might and dignity. The scriptures above then mean that no elohim, real or imaginary that should rightfully be recognized or acknowledged as the Creator and sovereign ruler of the universes. It is in this sense the bible uses the expression "only TRUE God", not that all other gods are false or not "real" but that no other gods (physical or divine) have the right to be identified as being in the the Supreme absolute position of power and excellence.

CONCLUSION: When the bible speaks about there being no other god but YHWH (or Him being the "only True God") it is not speaking in the absolute (that no other gods are real or exist) but in the relative sense, that relative to Him all other gods become insignificant.

JW






RELATE POSTS

How are we to understand EZEKIEL 28:1-19?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 840#907840

Why do some bibles vary between capital G- and a small g- for the word GOD?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 521#907521

Is the word G/god (elohim/theos) EXCLUSIVE to YHWH/Yahweh? (tigger2)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 565#907565

[JehovahsWitness]

DUPLICATE

[JehovahsWitness]

So I want to cover Psalms 82. The Watch Tower and many scholars believe this is talking about men, but a closer examination will prove this to be highly unlikely. [...] God is standing in the midst of the divine assembly here, so I ask when does God stand in the midst of men? [...] Psalms 82 is talking about spiritual beings.

♦ HOW SHOULD PSALMS 82 BE UNDERSTOOD?

WHERE IS THE DIVINE ASSEMBLY?

• Psalms 82:1 speaks of "the Divine Assemply" NWT ("The congregation of God" -JPS, "The assembly of God"- NHEB). Is this a reference to heavenly courts or earthly congregations that belong to YHWH? While YHWH does surround himself with faithful angels and hold assembly in the heaven, the Hebrew word for heaven (Shamayim ) is NOT in the verse. Note that the bible also refers to earthly assembly or gathering/groups of God's people in similar terms. Numbers speaks of Joshua leading "Jehovah's Assembly" and the entire nation of Israel is referred to as "the assembly of Jehovah" (Darby) or the "assembly of the LORD" (NIV) - compare Numbers 27:17; 31:16. So the "The congregation of God" or "The assembly of God" could be a reference to a gathering of spirits in heaven (Ps 89:5; Job1:6) or it could be a reference to the earthly (human) people of God. So far nothing is conclusive.

WHEN DOES GOD STAND IN THE MIDSTS OF MEN?

• God stands in the midst of men whenever he turns his attention to them with a view to inspection and/or action in relation to them. Of course the the "standing" in this case is symbolic as he has no need to literally descend from his permanent abode to do this. The bible often refers to God symbolically "coming down" or "descending" from heaven to inspect or take action on behalf of His people (compare Exodus 19:20; 2 Sam 22:10). Notice how the Prophet Zechaniah expressed the throught that YHWH/Jehovah was with his people.
  

  ZEPHENIAH 3:17
  
  American King James Version
  The LORD your God in the middle of you is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over you with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over you with singing.
  
  New Living Translation
  For the LORD your God is living among you. He is a mighty savior. He will take delight in you with gladness. With his love, he will calm all your fears. He will rejoice over you with joyful songs."
  
  English Standard Version
  The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

Since verse one doesn't indicate conclusively one way or the other if the "assembly of God" within which God stands refers to YHWH literally being in the middle of his angels or figuratively standing in the middle of his human subjects, it seems reasonably to turn to the immediate context to determine the correct interpretation.


HUMAN OR ANGELIC JUDGES?

• In Psalms 82 verse 2 we read "How long will you keep on judging with injustice... showing partiality?" The clues as to who is being spoken to is in the following verses. In Psalms 82:3 we read these judges are told or instructed to "Defend [Judge] the lowly and the fatherless. Render justice to the helpless and destitute.â€� So wherever this assembly is being held the participants are being instructed to judge God's people in righteousness. Were angels or humans appointed to judge? Deuteronomy 16:18 reads
  

  ... appoint judges and officers for each tribe in all the cities that Jehovah your God is giving you, and they must judge the people with righteous judgment

  
  
  So human earthly judges (not angels) were appointed to carry out God's instructions for the Israelites regarding the Mosaic law. Angels in heaven have not been appointed as judges, neither of humans nor of other spirits. Angels serve as messengers and servants of YHWH and have been sent to protect and/or execute humans but are never spoken of as judging them.
  

  PSALMS “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. But you will die just as men do; And like any other prince you will fall!’�

  Although angels are sometimes referred to as the "sons of god" (individuals created by YHWH), this expression is not exclusive to angelic spirit creatures, God's people the Isralites are also called the "sons of God" (see Hos 1:10). The sons of Psalms 82 "die just as men do" or as the Contemporary English Version puts it, "... die, just like everyone else, including powerful rulers.". Psalms therefore here is speaking about judges who are subject to the same human cycle that ultimately ends in death as any other human. It seems reasonable then to conclude then that verse six of Psalms 82 refers to human judges.
  

  How do we know this interpretation of Psalm 82 verse 6 applying to human judges is correct? There is no greater endorsement for this reading than that given by Jesus Christ himself who, directly quoting from this Psalm stated: "he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came" Did the Word of God (referring to revealed revelation through Hebrew scripture) come to angels in heaven or to YHWH's chosen people on earth? Were angels or human judges being condemned (by that same word) for their failure to apply the instructions?

CONCLUSION: Psalsm 82 speaks of several individuals and groups of individuals and identifying them is not an easy affair. That said a close examination of the context has lead by far the majority of bible commentators (including Jehoah's Witnessses) to conclude that the assembly of God is a reference, NOT to the heavenly gathering of faithful angels but to the nation of Israel more specifically the judiciary courts therein. The "sons of God" who "die just as men do" (verse 6) as being human judges condemned for their corrupt practices, and elohim "standing" in the middle as a symbolic reference to Almigjhty God's divine presence within this system.

[JehovahsWitness]

SUMMARY

When we talk about a god in the scripture, we are talking about a divine spiritual being.

...pretty much all of the elohim had physical bodies.

♦ Are you suggesting that no elohim referred to in scripture had physical bodies?

No where in scripture is it good to be called a god and scripture not be talking about Jehovah, no where end of statement.

♦ Except when it is...

EXODUS 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - ERV

ALL other gods/Gods are false and do not exist. They are the imaginations of man...

...pretty much all of the elohim had physical bodies.

♦ If they had a physical body they obviously exist/ed outside of mere imagination.

♦ Was Moses imaginary because he was made "a god" (see above Ex 7:1)?




This series of questions continues below in post# 58 by JehovahsWitness

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #57 by JehovahsWitness

My claim is that word pertains to ... God and god. True God, false god, ect.

♦ How is your point here any different than what Jehovah's Witnesses (tigger, OWH and myself JW) have been saying from the beginning?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 565#907565

The point here is that the capitalization we see in the English really doesn't not matter and that brings me to my earlier point that in Hebrew has no capitalization and it is context that lets us know which God/god we are talking about.

♦ Did any of us say any differently? You here make two points that merely state the obvious; something none of us are contesting (apart perhaps from the implication that capitalization has no impact in English texts).

If scripture is referring to something that is a god and is real [...] then we must be talking about Jehovah himself, because he is the only real god in existence.

♦ That is the point under debate and has yet to be proven.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 57 by JehovahsWitness]

Exodus 7:1. The Lord replied to Moses, "See, I place you in the role of God to Pharaoh, with your brother Aaron as your prophet." JPS

That should make it obvious that He didn't make Moses a god, just let him play a role. As all other human gods are imaginary.

God is saying, what are you complaining about Moses? I am letting you play god...

This is just one example of a repeated theme, especially in the Tanakh, about other gods not existing. It is also why I hold the Tanakh as superior for OT text. Besides the fact of less translating going on and the 3000 year understanding of the Hebrews, of which we(followers of Christ) are now a sect.

God made His Host. He did not make other gods to compete with Him. He did make some vessels to honor and others to dishonor. Satan is a fallen angel(messenger) who is our adversary. He is granted certain powers to God's purpose, but is never a god as you said earlier.