Who be chosen who?

[DPMartin]

There is the standard disagreement of whether God chooses you or that you chose God. In the case of “freewill� there seems to be some delusion to the effect that constitutional freedoms are the way things are, and supersedes what the bible might say on the matter. But when you see a car knowing it’s a car knowing that everyone else knows it’s a car do you emphatically deny it’s a car? (leaving all exceptions aside on this example) so do you actually have the freedom to not believe it’s a car, granted you can lie and deny openly, but do you really have the freewill to not believe it’s a car?

(it should be noted that though Calvinism is well known for “God chooses� this is not an argument for Calvinism no more than, in the previous example that the car mentioned is a ford because fords are cars)

Of course it’s true that if one never encounters Christ then one could only speculate that He is, or flat out not believe He is who Jesus Christ says He is. How can one declare what they don’t know or don’t know to be true? Seeing that revelation is the knowledge. God choses who He would reveal Himself to, correct? Certainly no one can make Him do so, therefore one can't know Him or that He is without the revelation to know. Also, in the case of the Lord God of Israel no one calls themselves, God calls, hence God choses.
Those that are with the Lord:
Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

And the faith is of Christ.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

So, one must be called, chosen, and faithful of which one must receive the faith of Christ that is to the satisfaction of God, which one would also receive by God’s choosing.
How is it, that many think they chose God, and that freewill has anything to do with it?


One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen. God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into. You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh. So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.

Sounds cold, but those who would will be called that’s for sure.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[ttruscott]

well when you are commissioned to translate scripture into English with a team of other experts I'll take your opinion under advisement until then the translation I used has stood public scrutiny for over 400 year's, I believe it out weighs your efforts here. if the translators didn't mean "evil" they could have used many other words. also KJV is translated by the brits who originated English and JPS also agrees which is a Jewish publisher which should be self explanatory. and the KJV translators used all three languages where applicable including the Latin translation. which would have to be a roman catholic source.


so you know, it SOP with posters that loss arguments like this to try and change the meaning of, or the words in scripture, as a last resort.

Here is the list of renderings of Isaiah 45:7 from the BibleHub: I know the GOD who creates evil has been worshipped for over 400 years but what happens when He meets the GOD who does not create evil, ie who is holy and righteous?

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Contemporary English Version
I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all this.

Good News Translation
I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

New American Standard 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jubilee Bible 2000
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

As you can see, you are not in the majority at all, but lose to the pretty even split, 14-11 in this list. The funniest thing is that the American King James Version corrects the KJV and the American Standard Version, a revised KJV. So your snide aside that we who stand by GOD's holy righteousness "change the meaning of, or the words in scripture, as a last resort" is mere ad hominem, making the argument suspect as reflecting its biased origins.

Anyway my argument in this debate is not from the interpretations of the source which I have agreed do indeed support the use of the world evil as moral evil but that in accordance with Christian bias pro our holy GOD; it is blasphemous and does nothing to further Christian understanding, ie, it adds nothing of importance to the game...

You may know a bit about theology but you know nothing about YHWH at all.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]


"King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things."

On the top of a pyramid is God. Everything that exists comes from Him.
Days of creation tell us everything God made was good.
Therefore evil came afterwards.
Evil is perversion of good.

As no one, neither did evil create evil, therefore its source is God.
It is in this sense that above reference is taken.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]


"King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things."

On the top of a pyramid is God. Everything that exists comes from Him.
Days of creation tell us everything God made was good.
Therefore evil came afterwards.
Evil is perversion of good.

Yes.

As no one, neither did evil create evil, therefore its source is God.

I am sorry to admit that the first bit of phrasing has no meaning to me so the conclusion "therefore its source is God" is moot. Of course GOD is the source in that HE is the source of our free will but that is as far as it goes.

I'm sure by now you know the argument how our free will allows us to create evil and even why it is a necessity for GOD to give us a free will to fulfill the purpose of our creation, to be HIS bride.

For myself, I do not need reminding that many believe YHWH creates evil and Satan is HIS dupe which I do not agree with as it contradicts what I believe about YHWH.

The verse gives us two possibilities: it allows those who accept YHWH's perfection in Deity as part of the explanation of how we can suffer without HIM being evil and it allows those who reject HIS goodness and deity to feel justified in continuing as they decide...even the Bible tells them they are correct!

By claiming ever so piously or dictatorially that evil in this verse is calamity or moral, ethical evil and perverseness is only to say where we have (so far) put our faith, our acceptance without proof, of what the verse means which is not necessarily the truth. I consider it a watershed idea - the farther you go in accepting the truth of it, the farther it takes you from the other option. It is a divider of thought and faith and many who claim to have faith in YHWH are sliding down its slope.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]


Quote:
"As no one, neither did evil create evil, therefore its source is God."

"I am sorry to admit that the first bit of phrasing has no meaning to me so the conclusion "therefore its source is God" is moot. Of course GOD is the source in that HE is the source of our free will but that is as far as it goes.

I'm sure by now you know the argument how our free will allows us to create evil and even why it is a necessity for GOD to give us a free will to fulfill the purpose of our creation, to be HIS bride."

I felt uncomfortable saying that which you quoted above.
I know what I mean by it but others may not.

Trying to follow you.. by our free will we create evil.
Isn't that the same as saying evil is perversion of truth in which case it becomes evil.

In my spiritual life it would never come to mind but I was responding to a post. Perhaps it is good being confronted with ideas - it makes you think.

[DPMartin]

well when you are commissioned to translate scripture into English with a team of other experts I'll take your opinion under advisement until then the translation I used has stood public scrutiny for over 400 year's, I believe it out weighs your efforts here. if the translators didn't mean "evil" they could have used many other words. also KJV is translated by the brits who originated English and JPS also agrees which is a Jewish publisher which should be self explanatory. and the KJV translators used all three languages where applicable including the Latin translation. which would have to be a roman catholic source.


so you know, it SOP with posters that loss arguments like this to try and change the meaning of, or the words in scripture, as a last resort.

Here is the list of renderings of Isaiah 45:7 from the BibleHub: I know the GOD who creates evil has been worshipped for over 400 years but what happens when He meets the GOD who does not create evil, ie who is holy and righteous?

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Contemporary English Version
I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all this.

Good News Translation
I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

New American Standard 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jubilee Bible 2000
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

As you can see, you are not in the majority at all, but lose to the pretty even split, 14-11 in this list. The funniest thing is that the American King James Version corrects the KJV and the American Standard Version, a revised KJV. So your snide aside that we who stand by GOD's holy righteousness "change the meaning of, or the words in scripture, as a last resort" is mere ad hominem, making the argument suspect as reflecting its biased origins.

Anyway my argument in this debate is not from the interpretations of the source which I have agreed do indeed support the use of the world evil as moral evil but that in accordance with Christian bias pro our holy GOD; it is blasphemous and does nothing to further Christian understanding, ie, it adds nothing of importance to the game...

You may know a bit about theology but you know nothing about YHWH at all.

well since you want to do home work on source of translation you should check just what many English translations are based on and you will find it the KJV. so its not about the majority of translations its about the reliability of a translation. hence KJV it the most reliable. and it wasn't based on another English translation as many other English translations are.

[DPMartin]

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]


Quote:
"As no one, neither did evil create evil, therefore its source is God."

"I am sorry to admit that the first bit of phrasing has no meaning to me so the conclusion "therefore its source is God" is moot. Of course GOD is the source in that HE is the source of our free will but that is as far as it goes.

I'm sure by now you know the argument how our free will allows us to create evil and even why it is a necessity for GOD to give us a free will to fulfill the purpose of our creation, to be HIS bride."

I felt uncomfortable saying that which you quoted above.
I know what I mean by it but others may not.

Trying to follow you.. by our free will we create evil.
Isn't that the same as saying evil is perversion of truth in which case it becomes evil.

In my spiritual life it would never come to mind but I was responding to a post. Perhaps it is good being confronted with ideas - it makes you think.

if you want to discuss the origin of evil seeing God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, hence it didn't hap hazardlly appear from nothing against God's will, maybe you should start your own threads on what you want to talk about.

[ttruscott]

Trying to follow you.. by our free will we create evil.
Isn't that the same as saying evil is perversion of truth in which case it becomes evil.

Yes, I do agree. But only the truth was presented as good and ideas which were chosen as an alternative truth, against the truth, that which perverted truth by calling it bad and the alternative good, that is evil. As Isaiah so well said: Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. such a stance is full of woe.

In my spiritual life it would never come to mind but I was responding to a post. Perhaps it is good being confronted with ideas - it makes you think.

Yes, the best of this place certainly does. The whining drone of mosquitoes who think they are gadflies is the other side...

[ttruscott]

well since you want to do home work on source of translation you should check just what many English translations are based on and you will find it the KJV. so its not about the majority of translations its about the reliability of a translation. hence KJV it the most reliable. and it wasn't based on another English translation as many other English translations are.

Yes, I am not arguing the word but the meaning of the word. All translations have an interpretation and even the word evil in Isa 45:7 in the KJV is said to have meant calamity, not moral evil. Is it not telling that the new edition chooses a different interpretation: King James 2000 Bible: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.?

It is billed by the Auburn University site as: "King James 2000 New Testament - KJ2000 version updates only archaic words, maintaining the cadence and lyricism of the original King James." and I suggest even they have seen the theological value of replacing the word evil with a new word that better portrays to the modern mind about its proper interpretation without any essential change in what the KJV meant.

[DPMartin]

well since you want to do home work on source of translation you should check just what many English translations are based on and you will find it the KJV. so its not about the majority of translations its about the reliability of a translation. hence KJV it the most reliable. and it wasn't based on another English translation as many other English translations are.

Yes, I am not arguing the word but the meaning of the word. All translations have an interpretation and even the word evil in Isa 45:7 in the KJV is said to have meant calamity, not moral evil. Is it not telling that the new edition chooses a different interpretation: King James 2000 Bible: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.?

It is billed by the Auburn University site as: "King James 2000 New Testament - KJ2000 version updates only archaic words, maintaining the cadence and lyricism of the original King James." and I suggest even they have seen the theological value of replacing the word evil with a new word that better portrays to the modern mind about its proper interpretation without any essential change in what the KJV meant.

if it didn't change what it meant, we wouldn't be arguing it. modern views are not truth, only views agreeable to those who disagree with ancient views.

ancient view or even views of 400 years ago:

Evil: The antithesis of good in all its principal senses this use of evil goes as far back as year 971

modern views: calamity: 1. The state or condition of grievous affliction or adversity; deep distress, trouble, or misery, arising from some adverse circumstance or event. this definition or use of the world calamity goes as far back as year 1490

both words and definition a part of the English language during the first translation completed 1611


and evil definition includes such things mentioned in calamity but if the translators didn't mean evil seeing everyone knows about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil surly they would have used something other than evil if they didn't include what evil is understood by all who would read it.

also the JPS uses evil and they are considered quite reliable on Jewish understanding of again, their text and language and what it means in English.



therefore modern views not likely to be correct seeing the text is ancient and written by those of said times. and the desire to change what the text says proves it. the accuracy claimed by the modern view is more likely more accurate to modern views and uses of English. KJV 2000 isn't really the KJV is it?

[ttruscott]

if you want to discuss the origin of evil seeing God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, hence it didn't hap hazardlly appear from nothing against God's will, maybe you should start your own threads on what you want to talk about.

Your paragraph in the OP:

One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen. God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into. You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh. So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.

is not about the origin of evil?

[There IS NO actual question for debate, is there...]

One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen.

This is only a necessity IF we accept that we are born sinners means that since our spirits are created at conception or birth (the created on earth bias) so that the only way this could be true is if we inherited that sin from Adam....but it is written we (sinners) inherit Adam's death, not his sin. That extrapolation is a confirmation of the bias only, which does not make it necessarily true.

God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into.

There is no logical progression from GOD making HIS choices to this making Adam choose for all mankind. The created on earth bias forces one to believe this but it is not logically presented yet, especially in the light of the fact that HE created us to love and to marry and there is no reason at all, let alone a bad reason, for HIM to create HIS future bride as grossly nauseatingly evil, pustulant and perverse.

You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh.

IF true guilt can only come from a free will decision to rebel against HIM, then to be born evil must prove that we sinned pre-conception and the created on earth bias be hanged.

So we did all in fact put ourselves above HIM to be as gods and separated ourselves into the two main groups of the elect and the non-elect and the smaller subgroup of the sinful elect as portrayed in the parable of the good seed, Matt 13:36-39, the people of the kingdom, sinful believers, and the people of the evil one, condemned already for their unbelief, Jn 3:18.

The sinful elect are sown here to work out their redemption by living with the people of the evil one...Matt 13:29-30.

So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.

That GOD chose our sinfulness and our sin is wrongly decided because it is based upon a false premise that we are created here on earth and there is no other way for us to be born sinful. GOD did choose "... that life for them, that you received being born into the world." but I argue HE did not choose our sin but responded to our self chosen free will evil by a predetermination of our LIVES, not our fates, to ensure that HIS sinful elect got the most perfect lives they could live to bring them to redemption and righteousness the most perfect way possible.