There is the standard disagreement of whether God chooses you or that you chose God. In the case of “freewill� there seems to be some delusion to the effect that constitutional freedoms are the way things are, and supersedes what the bible might say on the matter. But when you see a car knowing it’s a car knowing that everyone else knows it’s a car do you emphatically deny it’s a car? (leaving all exceptions aside on this example) so do you actually have the freedom to not believe it’s a car, granted you can lie and deny openly, but do you really have the freewill to not believe it’s a car?
(it should be noted that though Calvinism is well known for “God chooses� this is not an argument for Calvinism no more than, in the previous example that the car mentioned is a ford because fords are cars)
Of course it’s true that if one never encounters Christ then one could only speculate that He is, or flat out not believe He is who Jesus Christ says He is. How can one declare what they don’t know or don’t know to be true? Seeing that revelation is the knowledge. God choses who He would reveal Himself to, correct? Certainly no one can make Him do so, therefore one can't know Him or that He is without the revelation to know. Also, in the case of the Lord God of Israel no one calls themselves, God calls, hence God choses.
Those that are with the Lord:
Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
And the faith is of Christ.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
So, one must be called, chosen, and faithful of which one must receive the faith of Christ that is to the satisfaction of God, which one would also receive by God’s choosing.
How is it, that many think they chose God, and that freewill has anything to do with it?
One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen. God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into. You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh. So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.
Sounds cold, but those who would will be called that’s for sure.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who be chosen who?
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Post #31
[Replying to post 30 by OnceConvinced]
That wasn't quite what I meant, exactly. Interpetation reveals the interpreters mind set more than the few words actually written.
Although, I agree God allows evil here to "do its job" for Him. "Is not one vessel made for honor, and another to dishonor?"
You are not truly good if good is the only choice.
That wasn't quite what I meant, exactly. Interpetation reveals the interpreters mind set more than the few words actually written.
Although, I agree God allows evil here to "do its job" for Him. "Is not one vessel made for honor, and another to dishonor?"
You are not truly good if good is the only choice.
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Re: Who be chosen who?
Post #32Apparently neither was the New World Translation of the JW's and I think they have bits wrong also.DPMartin wrote:
well since you want to do home work on source of translation you should check just what many English translations are based on and you will find it the KJV. so its not about the majority of translations its about the reliability of a translation. hence KJV it the most reliable. and it wasn't based on another English translation as many other English translations are.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
- ttruscott
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Re: Who be chosen who?
Post #33This is a common poetic method: to repeat the same thought with a different metaphor: in this case light and dark are not descriptions of who HE IS but are metaphors for how HE treats people: equal to "I create blessing / peace (light) and judgements / calamity (dark)".DPMartin wrote:
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
- ttruscott
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Post #34
Then you deny the concept of just retribution for crime completely...or not? You are not one of those who are appalled to think that Pol Pot might be saved from retribution by seeking Christ at the last moment of life?OnceConvinced wrote:I agree. Whether you want to say he creates evil, calamity, disaster or whatever other term the various versions are using, it still sounds like evil to me. It still all sounds very malevolent.brianbbs67 wrote: Aren't you two saying about the same thing?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Who be chosen who?
Post #35Rev 17:15 Then he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the whore is sitting, are peoples, crowds, nations and languages.DPMartin wrote: There is the standard disagreement of whether God chooses you or that you chose God. In the case of “freewill� there seems to be some delusion to the effect that constitutional freedoms are the way things are, and supersedes what the bible might say on the matter. But when you see a car knowing it’s a car knowing that everyone else knows it’s a car do you emphatically deny it’s a car? (leaving all exceptions aside on this example) so do you actually have the freedom to not believe it’s a car, granted you can lie and deny openly, but do you really have the freewill to not believe it’s a car?
(it should be noted that though Calvinism is well known for “God chooses� this is not an argument for Calvinism no more than, in the previous example that the car mentioned is a ford because fords are cars)
Of course it’s true that if one never encounters Christ then one could only speculate that He is, or flat out not believe He is who Jesus Christ says He is. How can one declare what they don’t know or don’t know to be true? Seeing that revelation is the knowledge. God choses who He would reveal Himself to, correct? Certainly no one can make Him do so, therefore one can't know Him or that He is without the revelation to know. Also, in the case of the Lord God of Israel no one calls themselves, God calls, hence God choses.
Those that are with the Lord:
Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
And the faith is of Christ.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
So, one must be called, chosen, and faithful of which one must receive the faith of Christ that is to the satisfaction of God, which one would also receive by God’s choosing.
How is it, that many think they chose God, and that freewill has anything to do with it?
One could say Adam and Eve chose, but that is an argument for your condemned state, should you not be chosen. God made the garden and what was in it by His choice. God put the man in the garden and told Him the conditions therein, by God’s choice. Hence if there was any choice made A&E made the choice for the condition all children of men are born into. You didn’t have that choice they did it for you if you believe freewill. But you have received the life they technically didn’t chose, they choose to be gods knowing good and evil, but God left them with dust to dust, ashes to ashes which the animals already had, life of the flesh in the flesh. So actually, God chose that life for them, that you received being born into the world. So one is born into the world in the condemned state (separation from God) without their or your choosing and are chosen by God to be in the Presence of God.
Sounds cold, but those who would will be called that’s for sure.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rev 17:16 As for the ten horns that you saw and the beast, they will hate the whore, bring her to ruin, leave her naked, eat her flesh and consume her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God put it in their hearts to do what will fulfill his purpose, that is, to be of one mind and give their kingdom to the beast until God's words have accomplished their intent.
Rev 17:18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
chapters do not end a teaching and then start anew, verse numbers are for ease of referencing only... JWs for example never get this...?