Before one can begin a study of the New Testament, one should decide if one is reading about history or legend or both.
historical
ADJECTIVE
of or concerning history; concerning past events.
"the historical background to such studies"
synonyms: actual · existent · nonfictional · nonfictitious · factual · historical · material · physical 
legendary
ADJECTIVE
of, described in, or based on legends.
"a legendary British king of the 4th century"
synonyms: fabled · heroic · ancient · traditional · fairy-tale · storybook · romantic ·
[more]
Which is it?
Is the New Testament historical or ledgendary or both?
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Is the New Testament historical or ledgendary or both?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
I have come to believe that the NT is wholly mythological, parabolic, allegorical, and analogical. The earliest Gospel, Mark, simply lays out prophetic/savior/messianic tropes and fills them with examples from the Jewish Bible. No historical Jesus is necessary to explain the Gospels, and this holds much more for Paul and the other Epistle authors, who revered a non-material, spiritual, preexistent, heavenly "Son" whose incarnation took place in "the Other Realm", but not on earth. Paul and the Epistles know nothing about Jesus having had an earthly ministry.
IF Paul and the Epistles were actually based on a historical Jesus, they seldom cite that ministry in any unambiguous manner. Paul and the Epistles never once cite Jesus's baptism by John, his temptation, his selection of the Twelve, his lengthy stay in Capernaum, his parables, his sermon on the mount, his walking on water/changing water into wine, his cures and exorcisms, his conflicts with his own family, his disciples, the scribes, priests, and Pharisees, his "I am" sayings, his raising of the widow's son, the leader's daughter, or Lazarus, his large family, the Beloved Disciple, etc. Paul mentions none of these examples from the historical Jesus's purported earthly life. The only exception is when "Paul" cites Jesus having said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive", but that is not Paul himself speaking, but rather, Luke/Acts placing the expression on Paul's lips - no such citation exists in any of Paul's letters.
Parsimony strongly indicates that the utter lack in Paul and the Epistles of the historical Jesus of the Gospels leads directly to the conclusion that they simply had no historical figure to cite, to quote, or to invoke as an example of godly living.
I have come to believe that the NT is wholly mythological, parabolic, allegorical, and analogical. The earliest Gospel, Mark, simply lays out prophetic/savior/messianic tropes and fills them with examples from the Jewish Bible. No historical Jesus is necessary to explain the Gospels, and this holds much more for Paul and the other Epistle authors, who revered a non-material, spiritual, preexistent, heavenly "Son" whose incarnation took place in "the Other Realm", but not on earth. Paul and the Epistles know nothing about Jesus having had an earthly ministry.
IF Paul and the Epistles were actually based on a historical Jesus, they seldom cite that ministry in any unambiguous manner. Paul and the Epistles never once cite Jesus's baptism by John, his temptation, his selection of the Twelve, his lengthy stay in Capernaum, his parables, his sermon on the mount, his walking on water/changing water into wine, his cures and exorcisms, his conflicts with his own family, his disciples, the scribes, priests, and Pharisees, his "I am" sayings, his raising of the widow's son, the leader's daughter, or Lazarus, his large family, the Beloved Disciple, etc. Paul mentions none of these examples from the historical Jesus's purported earthly life. The only exception is when "Paul" cites Jesus having said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive", but that is not Paul himself speaking, but rather, Luke/Acts placing the expression on Paul's lips - no such citation exists in any of Paul's letters.
Parsimony strongly indicates that the utter lack in Paul and the Epistles of the historical Jesus of the Gospels leads directly to the conclusion that they simply had no historical figure to cite, to quote, or to invoke as an example of godly living.
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Tcg
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Re: Is the New Testament historical or ledgendary or both?
Post #3I can think of one other from 1 Corinthians 11 when Paul describes the events that took place during what is known as, "The Lords' Supper". He quotes Jesus as saying, “Take, eat, this is my body which is being broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me.� Of course this doesn't answer whether or not this was an historical event, but it is an example of Paul describing an event from Jesus' earthly ministry.steveb1 wrote:
The only exception is when "Paul" cites Jesus having said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive", but that is not Paul himself speaking, but rather, Luke/Acts placing the expression on Paul's lips - no such citation exists in any of Paul's letters.
Re: Is the New Testament historical or ledgendary or both?
Post #4RESPONSE: Do you think it possible that Paul originated this story (about 55 A.D)and then it was taken up by Mark about 70 A.D, and Matthew and Luke (about 80 A.D.) from Mark's gospel?Tcg wrote:I can think of one other from 1 Corinthians 11 when Paul describes the events that took place during what is known as, "The Lords' Supper". He quotes Jesus as saying, “Take, eat, this is my body which is being broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me.� Of course this doesn't answer whether or not this was an historical event, but it is an example of Paul describing an event from Jesus' earthly ministry.steveb1 wrote:
The only exception is when "Paul" cites Jesus having said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive", but that is not Paul himself speaking, but rather, Luke/Acts placing the expression on Paul's lips - no such citation exists in any of Paul's letters.
Note that John's gospel who doesn't use Mark as a source doesn't have a Eucharist at the last supper.
Re: Is the New Testament historical or ledgendary or both?
Post #5[Replying to post 3 by Tcg]
Actually, what Paul really says is that he got the entire scenario as a special revelation from the Lord, of a new ritual apparently unknown to, and not practiced by, the Jerusalem disciples, who according to Luke/Acts, only practiced the traditional Jewish "breaking of the bread".
Granted, Paul does describe Jesus's Eucharist as having happened "on the night he was given over", but Paul never cites this event as a "last" supper or Jesus passing the bread to the disciples, and never mentions who handed Jesus over to whom. It seems that Jesus is performing an eternal sacramental act in the timeless heavens, and that the Synoptics borrowed the scene, with certain modifcations, and historicized it in their respective "Last Supper" accounts. Had the disciples been performing the Last Supper from its inception, there would be no reason for Paul to say that he only heard of it from Jesus himself, and not from the "apostolic tradition".
Actually, what Paul really says is that he got the entire scenario as a special revelation from the Lord, of a new ritual apparently unknown to, and not practiced by, the Jerusalem disciples, who according to Luke/Acts, only practiced the traditional Jewish "breaking of the bread".
Granted, Paul does describe Jesus's Eucharist as having happened "on the night he was given over", but Paul never cites this event as a "last" supper or Jesus passing the bread to the disciples, and never mentions who handed Jesus over to whom. It seems that Jesus is performing an eternal sacramental act in the timeless heavens, and that the Synoptics borrowed the scene, with certain modifcations, and historicized it in their respective "Last Supper" accounts. Had the disciples been performing the Last Supper from its inception, there would be no reason for Paul to say that he only heard of it from Jesus himself, and not from the "apostolic tradition".
Re: Is the New Testament historical or ledgendary or both?
Post #6[Replying to post 4 by polonius.advice]
"RESPONSE: Do you think it possible that Paul originated this story (about 55 A.D)and then it was taken up by Mark about 70 A.D, and Matthew and Luke (about 80 A.D.) from Mark's gospel?
Note that John's gospel who doesn't use Mark as a source doesn't have a Eucharist at the last supper."
Yep! That is exactly what I think happened. Apparently Mark and maybe Matthew and Luke were aware of, or even were participants in, a kind of Pauline Eucharist, and wanted to historicize it by including it in their Gospels.
"RESPONSE: Do you think it possible that Paul originated this story (about 55 A.D)and then it was taken up by Mark about 70 A.D, and Matthew and Luke (about 80 A.D.) from Mark's gospel?
Note that John's gospel who doesn't use Mark as a source doesn't have a Eucharist at the last supper."
Yep! That is exactly what I think happened. Apparently Mark and maybe Matthew and Luke were aware of, or even were participants in, a kind of Pauline Eucharist, and wanted to historicize it by including it in their Gospels.
Where did Paul learn of the Eucharist?
Post #7Paul claims that his knowledge of Jesus came from personal "revelations." But wasn't a bread and wine communion performed before Paul's time?
Hint: Where was Paul from? Where did he grow up?
Hint: Where was Paul from? Where did he grow up?
Re: Where did Paul learn of the Eucharist?
Post #8[Replying to post 7 by polonius.advice]
Yeah, he could have got it from any number of Mithras and similar "pagan" liturgies...
Yeah, he could have got it from any number of Mithras and similar "pagan" liturgies...
Paul of Tarsus grew up in Tarsus
Post #9Since all of these characteristics of Mithras predated Yeshua by fourteen hundred years, Mithraism could not have copied the Yeshua story; it had to be the reverse. These details about Yeshua were not in the earliest sources. They appeared later.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/mom08.htm
“In the Mazdean service, the celebrant consecrated the bread and the water which he mingled with the intoxicating juice of the Haoma prepared by him, and he consumed these foods during the performance of his sacrifice. These ancient usages were preserved in the Mithraic initiations, save that for the Haoma, a plant unknown in the Occident, was substituted the juice of the vine. A loaf of bread and a goblet of water were placed before the mystic, over which the priest pronounced the sacred formula. This oblation of bread and water, with which undoubtedly wine was afterward mixed, is compared by the apologists to the Christian sacrament of the Lord's Supper.�
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html
“Paul was supposedly born and raised in the city of Tarsus, a region in SE Asia-Minor (now called Turkey) where Mithras was well known. Biblical scholars are now saying that Paul, the alleged author of 13 out of the 27 (maybe more) books of the New Testament, may have been influenced in his writings by this strong religion of Mithraism. We can see a profound kinship between Mithraism and Christianity.
Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolum) – early Baptism "washed in the blood of the Lamb" – late Baptism by water [recorded by the Christian author Tertullian Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and Salvation of His adherents --an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the divine.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?
page=mithras_and_christianity
Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 66: "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/mom08.htm
“In the Mazdean service, the celebrant consecrated the bread and the water which he mingled with the intoxicating juice of the Haoma prepared by him, and he consumed these foods during the performance of his sacrifice. These ancient usages were preserved in the Mithraic initiations, save that for the Haoma, a plant unknown in the Occident, was substituted the juice of the vine. A loaf of bread and a goblet of water were placed before the mystic, over which the priest pronounced the sacred formula. This oblation of bread and water, with which undoubtedly wine was afterward mixed, is compared by the apologists to the Christian sacrament of the Lord's Supper.�
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html
“Paul was supposedly born and raised in the city of Tarsus, a region in SE Asia-Minor (now called Turkey) where Mithras was well known. Biblical scholars are now saying that Paul, the alleged author of 13 out of the 27 (maybe more) books of the New Testament, may have been influenced in his writings by this strong religion of Mithraism. We can see a profound kinship between Mithraism and Christianity.
Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolum) – early Baptism "washed in the blood of the Lamb" – late Baptism by water [recorded by the Christian author Tertullian Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and Salvation of His adherents --an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the divine.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?
page=mithras_and_christianity
Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 66: "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."
