When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

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micatala
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When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

Post #1

Post by micatala »

This thread is prompted by the often-made statement.
I have asked you to provide any evidence "from the Bible" (since you have offered that you are a priest), where sodomy/perderasty-homosexuality-Gay, is celebrated, supported, condoned, promoted, or preached as acceptable, anywhere in the New Testament
The implication is that, since the Bible nowhere promotes, condones, or 'celebrates' homosexuality, this is further indication it should be condemned.

Question for debate:

Is this a valid conclusion?

Are there other examples of behaviors, views, etc. that are not promoted, condoned, or celebrated in the Bible, but that Christians typically do not condemn?

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McCulloch
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Post #2

Post by McCulloch »

Much as I think that I agree with your conclusions and share your frustration with the debate on these types of topics, I have to state that I believe that your question is somewhat biased.

In the Bible, there is an apparent disapproval of homosexuality. Christians can and do argue about the scope, intent and meaning of this disapproval. But it is there in a few passages. Given that prima facie evidence, it is quite fair to call for biblical evidence to support the approval of such practices.

So, I think that your question would be better phrased as, "Are there other examples of behaviors that are apparently disapproved of in the Bible and that the writers of the Bible do not promote, condone, or celebrate that Christians typically do not condemn?"

Three examples come to mind:
  1. Sex during menstruation.
    Leviticus 20 wrote:If there is a man who lies with a menstruous woman and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow, and she has exposed the flow of her blood; thus both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
  2. Mixing cattle breeds, mixed seed sewing and mixed fibers.
    Levitucus 19 wrote:You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.
  3. Wrong length of hair
    Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God which is at Corinth wrote:Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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The truth will make you free.
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micatala
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Post #3

Post by micatala »

McCulloch wrote:Much as I think that I agree with your conclusions and share your frustration with the debate on these types of topics, I have to state that I believe that your question is somewhat biased.

In the Bible, there is an apparent disapproval of homosexuality. Christians can and do argue about the scope, intent and meaning of this disapproval. But it is there in a few passages. Given that prima facie evidence, it is quite fair to call for biblical evidence to support the approval of such practices.
Yes, this is a fair point. Certainly, the current 'traditional' interpretation is that the Bible condemns homosexuality in general. As you say, there is some debate about the 'scope, intent and meaning' of the verses expressing this disapproval. My intent was to focus on the particular question posed here so as not to get bogged down in this other debate.

We could, for purposes of this thread, accept that the most straightforward interpretation is that the Bible condemns homosexual acts, and ask people not to debate that point here.


Another practice that comes to mind is 'usury.' At this point, I have not researched the passages concerning money-lending for interest, but I am aware that there are some passages which at least frown upon this practice.


Yet another would relate to the role of women in the church. Certainly, Paul speaks against in fairly strong and straightforward terms allowing women to be involved in leadership positions in the church, or even to speak in church. There are no examples of women being referred to as apostles in the church. One could say that having a modern day congregation that is led by a women is against Biblical teaching. There is considerable disagreement among Christians churches on this point, with many still holding that having a women pastor is not right.

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BeHereNow
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Post #4

Post by BeHereNow »

Wealth (or excess wealth) and divorce are two of my pet peeves.

Divorce and remarriage is a form of adultery on an par even with homosexuality, biblically speaking.

According to repeated teachings in the bible it will be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for Bill Gates to get into heaven, regardless of his philanthropic activities.
I haven’t heard any Christians say he is a bad man simply because he is wealthy.

There is also celibacy, which Paul presents as the superior path for any Christian who truly wishes to serve the Lord.
He is less intense about this compared to divorce, but clearly if Christians are to follow the bible, there should be many celibate Christians as good examples. Instead they revert to the OT and are fruitful, ignoring the NT advice.

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Post #5

Post by micatala »

Divorce is a good example.

However, most Christians will say that they do not approve of divorce, even if they themselves or their church 'condone' it.

Thus, asking Christians to approve of or accept homosexuality would be asking them to go further than they are willing to go, at least on the record, with respect to divorce.

It might be interesting to ask people to come up a policy and or doctrine which would apply to both divorce and homosexuality equally. Whatever legal policies apply to one should apply to the other. Whatever ecclesiastical law or doctrine that applies to one should apply to the other.

Following current practice in many churches, we would then allow homosexual unions just as we allow divorced individuals to remarry, possibly after some 'examination' or review of the individual situation.

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Post #6

Post by 1John2_26 »

Divorce is a good example.
It is a great example. God talks about His people Israel as an adulterous spouse going after false idols. Divorce was allowed for the israelites.
However, most Christians will say that they do not approve of divorce, even if they themselves or their church 'condone' it.
No Church condones or celebrates divorce. It is a sad state of affairs.
Thus, asking Christians to approve of or accept homosexuality would be asking them to go further than they are willing to go, at least on the record, with respect to divorce.


A person that repents is and should be re-placed into the community of fellowship. The adulterous woman and her man were not killed for their actions. "She" was told to go and sin no more. Marriage (only man-woman according to Jesus) is not adultery.
It might be interesting to ask people to come up a policy and or doctrine which would apply to both divorce and homosexuality equally.
How? Marriage is not man-man or woman-woman. If homosexuals want to marry a person of the opposite gender then all is fine. "Biblically."
Whatever legal policies apply to one should apply to the other.
Not according to the Bible from beginning to end.
Whatever ecclesiastical law or doctrine that applies to one should apply to the other.
The matter is settled "in the Bible." Same-gender sexuality is not acceptable.
Following current practice in many churches, we would then allow homosexual unions just as we allow divorced individuals to remarry, possibly after some 'examination' or review of the individual situation.
And . . . if homosexuals want to get married, then there is no problem. Repent, be forgiven, and get married to someone of the opposite gender.

Where is their justification for altering sexuality or marriage "FROM the Bible?" Jesus clearly gave no room for same-gender sex or marriage. How would that interpretation ever possibly be reached, in dealing with man, woman, "from the beginning." It is not appropriate to force acceptance of same-gander sexuality where it is clearly denied.

No where does the Biblical writers even come close to celebrating or promoting same-gender sex acts. But if you remove the word "homosexual" from the modern Bible and liberal thought, then homosexuality - even if it does not get a person stoned to death - is improper fornication and sexual sin. Therefore repent, be forgiven (as promised), change and be a Christian.
1 Corinthians 6

8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not (L)inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

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Post #7

Post by melikio »

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
As it relates to the word "were":

I don't think this verse is saying that even the people who Paul was referring to, had less (or none) of a propensity to be sinful, as much as it is saying that their spiritual condition (in Christ) is altered. Not that any person's sinful nature is eliminated, but that it is not regarded by God as a result of them being "justified".

IF being "Christian" actually meant that people only did right/good, the world would be a LOT different than it has been. Not to say that God has not done good through Christian people, but that they aren't likely the ONLY people He has done good through. In the real world, there are "Christians" who lie, steal, commit violent acts, are guilty of hatred, racism, adultery and greed. The list goes on, but that is what we have in "people" (even Christians).

If grace had not been the most significant component of salvation, then no one would be saved. "Christian" is just a label; the essence of what a Christian is comes from the spiritual fact that God has accepted them THROUGH Christ. One person may have a problem with being "homosexual", and another may have a problem with hating the homosexual rather than what they view as the "sin" of homosexual behavior; and without the same grace that covers "homosexual" people, those many Christians would (in the end) indeed be found guilty of sin (hatred) themselves. Without grace, no one "makes" or "achieves" a place in Heaven (biblically speaking).

There are many things which can be prohibited/condonned via biblical interpretation/s. If one doesn't believe that, just look at the many philosophies, policies and dogmas which spring from various (Christian) denominations and sects. And with all due respect to the Creator, I think we are obligated to admit that we do not know HIS EXACT WILL (despite what we might "believe").

And this illustrates the problem with people not promoting grace, but rather enforcing or compelling others to submit to a form of "Christianity" which they might deem "true" or "correct". Surely, something more universal must be applicable, than the narrow view/s of Christ and the Bible which many tend to propagate. There's nothing wrong with respecting the "faith" which another may hold (what they accept and/or believe), but it is another thing to expect "conformity" to our own spiritual or religious views. As important as the Bible may be to many (or any of us), I don't see any way that it can be or mean the same thing/s to all human beings. That is, what holds it all together (the essence of Jesus' gift) is "faith", "hope" and (most importantly) "love".

The religion of some, is viewed as a set of absolutes which MUST be adhered to, in order to meet some "standard". Though MANY apply the Bible in just that way, it is NOT the way that ALL people approach it. Despite how much it bothers some to think of it, there appears to be no absolutely perfect interpretation of all that it addresses; I personally believe (by faith) that was MEANT to be.

-Mel-
Last edited by melikio on Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #8

Post by BeHereNow »

1John2_26: Marriage (only man-woman according to Jesus) is not adultery.

Matt. [5:32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

So any woman who is divorced, is a fornicator, or an adulteress.
Also, whoever marries a divorced woman is committing adultery. Not just committing a single act of adultery, but engaging in an adulteress life style.

Matt. [10:12] And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

A divorced woman who remarries commits adultery (lives an adulterous life style).

Luke [16:18] Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Any man who divorces and remarries commits adultery, and any man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So any man who remarries is an adulterer, any man who marries a divorced woman is an adulterer, in other words, divorce and remarriage always results in adultery. Not just a one time occurrence of adultery, but a life style of adultery.
Also, a man who divorces a woman, causes her to be an adulterer (or she was a fornicator), so divorce itself causes adultery.
The only time divorce would be acceptable, would be if neither were fornicators, they got divorced, and neither one ever got married or had sexual relations with someone else. This would be a small group of persons.

Biblically (NT) speaking, any person who marries a divorced person, or is divorced and remarries, is just as sinful as a homosexual.
Can it be seen any other way?

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Post #9

Post by Cathar1950 »

BeHereNow that would seem to be the "biblical" position and unlike the homosexual interpretations it is pretty clear even if there is conflicting scripture on the issue. One says not even adultery is a reason the other allows for adultery.
I think that this would have a problem in the USA considering divorce rate is about 50% and would limit the church's attendance as well as support.
But if you have only at the most maybe 10% of the people this would make a easy scapegoat as well as not diminishing the present coffers.
But there are always going to be churchs that allow what others object.
Such is the free market forces working in religion.
Why Paul who is so post law single out most sexual sins is anyone's guess. Singling out homosexuals seems to be nothing but Hypocrisy.
That some take the bible as the Word of God is a choice they make and not binding to others including many Christians. The argument from the bible although in keeping with Jewish scriptural invention and interpretation would only be binding to those of that persuasion and can not be force on all including all Christians and secularist.
Marriage (only man-woman according to Jesus) is not adultery.
Jesus does not even mention homosexuals, ever.
How? Marriage is not man-man or woman-woman. If homosexuals want to marry a person of the opposite gender then all is fine. "Biblically."
So they should remain in the closet. I see your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Is that what you did?
Not according to the Bible from beginning to end.
Is it on ever page? No only a few passages even relate and even marriage is undesirable because the end was soon. It is a good thing many did not listen 2000 years later the immediate coming has not happened. If they had listened they would have severely limited Christian population growth.
The matter is settled "in the Bible."
It is Hardly settle for anyone that alone a secular culture.

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Post #10

Post by BeHereNow »

Cathar1950: Why Paul who is so post law single out most sexual sins is anyone's guess. Singling out homosexuals seems to be nothing but Hypocrisy.
Yes, he is certainly single minded at times.
I wouldn’t say he condemns marriage, but he makes it clear that for those thinking about getting married, they should think twice and stay single. He also says that is not his idea alone, as god has given him permission to say these things.

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