Melikio wrote:
The Bible can/will always be argued between people (nothing new about that), but that book will not always be a[s] relevant as it seems to be today... that will come about by necessity, slowly but surely.
1John replied: The Gay Agenda.
No, not the "Gay Agenda"; you misunderstand what I say, yet again. Oh well.
Finally after so many posts from you Mel, we get to see an important part of it from your own words.
Am I particularly wrong to point that out? I mean, "Christianity" is NOT the first and ONLY "religion", that other "knowledge" has caused an adjustment to over time. As I've said many many times: God may not change, but that which people understand and interpret about Him (even from the Bible) absolutely changes over time.
Melikio wrote:
I don't think there is anything left to discuss, except what people should do (or not do) when they are in a hands-on situation concerning homosexuals.
There is nothing further to discuss in a Christian context.
Sure there is; perhaps there is nothing to discuss from the "Christian context" you prefer (or find acceptable), but there is certainly more to discuss. (Don't be
delusional about that.)
It is clear that secular laws are sought and will be used to force Christians submit to the Gay Agenda:
Here comes the anti-gay "hype".
Melikio wrote:
Even so, it IS time (for me and others who are homosexual) to make sure that things happen politically and legally; . . . it's best to take things to the next level.
Yep. The discussions can continue at THIS level, but to have better resolution, I don't think we can approach all of it from a biblical perspective. The Bible can certainly be considered by all who have a view of things, but it does not offer the only realistic or practical view of an issue which it is sometimes very vague about.
Mel wrote:
No, it's not the imagined gay-agenda that you have so often frothed at the brain about, it's just a matter of reasonable civil rights for those who happen to be "homosexual".
Yep. It sure is.
Though imposed upon Christians by homosexuals. Now seeing "it is time" to make it happen by secular laws. No need to froth over an actual reality.
1John, what you call "actual reality", is often a matter of what you perceive. You DO NOT get to define "reality" for every darned person. (When are you going to
accept that man?!!)
Mel wrote:
Nothing I've seen here has shown me how to FIX or CHANGE anything about being homosexual. The most you've done, is show how un-Christian or wrong you believe it is...etc.
1John wrote: Homosexuals involved with social/Christian issues, are demanding too much.
YOU read and dig for the most EXTREME and CRAZY crap, then you comment on it, as if every homosexual is walking lock-step with that radical stuff you are so obsessed with. I've been around gay and straight people ALL OF MY LIFE; and I've never heard that whacky thinking come from anyone. I've only seen it on the NET, and you seem to buy into it
hook,
line and
sinker.
Many gay people DO have an agenda, but not anything like the
Twilight-Zone-esque ideas you illuminate in this forum. I just isn't like you say; and you can't accept that. Oh well.
They are demanding to alter and indeed abolish Christianity.
You have just written as much.
You are LYING, or you misunderstand what I have said. And more than that, you prove that you know so very little about me at all. THen again, this is the internet, and it isn't likely you could really
know me.
I have never once in any post since you and I began our debating, have ever called you a non-Christian.
Y
It really doesn't matter what you call me; I kind of wonder what you mean by "
Christian" anyway.
You are not a homosexual to me or any Christian I know. You are a person. Only a person.
1John, I am a "person" with a homosexual-orientation. It is not a non-issue in this world, and you really need to understand that. I used to DREAM of it being a NON-ISSUE. You and many like you, are the very people who make things so freaking hard, for even a celibate gay man/woman, to live in peace in this world. I spent my ENTIRE YOUTH, quietly waiting for the kind of acceptance you imply. I was/am very self-controlled with my sexuality (not perfect); but it is sure COMMON to hear the most cruel BS ever, coming from even "Christians", who haven't really learned how to LOVE a "sinner". So, don't imply that I can just be a "person"; it doesn't work that way (as much as most gay people would like for it to); GET REAL... or find yourself (and even certain portions of your beliefs) relegated to irrelevance.
Your physical actions are your own.
Of course. But there is little doubt that some would attempt to control others, even using "Christianty" as justification.
But what you and every other homosexual demand is too much.
If you think that I and every other homosexual, ascribes to that STUPID imaginary "agenda" you've convinced yourself exists, then yes... the demands would be too much. But with ALL of my posts taken in their proper context, there is no real proof that I would ascribe to any such foolish agenda. (GET REAL.)
The Bible is clear on what is and what isn't allowable to alter.
Who altered anything? We all interpret that book. YOu have no more proof that YOUR approach is anymore "right" (in the absolute sense), as most other people posting here. You've been told that is the case by many, but now it seems near impossible to convince you of that basic truth. You DO NOT have the truth "cornered", 1John.
You do not want to "be" what we are; Repentant and submissive people to the Gospel of salvation. You opinion does appear to not tolerate the New Testament and it does want it "changed."
Wrong on all counts. (Shall I proceed to make unauthorized judgements about YOU? I won't, because it breaks the rules of this forum.) YOU don't know a thing, about what is in my heart. I don't know if you are the biggest sinner, or the biggest saint on the planet... I can't prove that about YOU, and you can't do that about ME. (Get REAL.)
That is not allowed. It goes too far.
You are so in line with "truth", that no grace need be applied to your perceptions and biblical interpretations? (Think it over.)
In fact celebrating homosexuality and forcing same-gender marriage be accepted by Christians "or they will have to face legal sanctions," is evil.
This could be a separate thread. I wouldn't condone any such "forcing", just as I despise "Christians" overstepping their authority, to force a "CHANGE" upon homosexual people.
I have the writings in the New Testament to make that connection.
You interpretation of biblical writings, helps you to rationalize any such "connection". And I'm not saying that others haven't done the same, but it's as if you seem to think you have the MOST EXCELLENT interpretation of ALL. (Get OVER YOURSELF.)
If anyone brings that on Christians they do it with the sanction of something other than decency or justice or God.
The way most homosexual people have been treated throughout the centuries, is certainly awaiting a review by God Himself (IMV).
Evil is the motivating factor to force this secular evil onto Christians.
Is it that you think/believe "Christians" cannot force "religious evil" onto other human beings? (Think it over.)
I have every writer in the New Testament to back that up.
No, you have YOUR
interpretations of every writer in the New Testament, to help you rationalize your opinions and positions. And you need to understand that every Christian IS subject to doing the same exact thing (albeit in varying degrees).
Melikio, you have made your statement on the worth of the Bible. Though notice; I have never accused you of not being a Christian.
And I think you have misinterpreted the things I have said. I don't know your intentions, but I am guarded about what you say (as usual).
All I can hope for is for you to see the error of what you stated.
1John, I trust God so much (really), that I would ask you to pray about it in whatever way you see fit. That would be far better than trying to get me to trust what you say here.
Whatever causes a person to desire sexual interactions with a person of the same gender, that cannot alter the word of God.
LOL! No ne has claimed that anyone's sexual-orientation does any such thing. Where did you get that kind of "convolution" from?
That desire goes too far.
If that imaginary and extreme "gay agenda" (that you seem obsessed with) is what you are talking about (again), then I might just agree with you. Otherwise, ALL gay people (not even "many"), are demanding or desiring what
you say.
Not one writer in the New Testament or the consistent history of the actions of Christians since the inception of the Church, agrees with your opinion on the Bible waning in importance in any age.
I was implying that beliefs and practices surrounding any "religion" certainly DO change. "Christianity" will likely change, and in 1000 years, (especially from your perspective) it might not even be recognized.
I believe that the truest and most important essence of it will remain intact; and
agape is that essence.
In some cases innocent, and in some cases evil. Yoking ourselves with unbelievers or anti-Christ's, is not a good thing to do. Would any Biblical writer disagree with that?
1John, do you think that your interpretations and proclamations don't show that you need as much "grace" as anyone you have been talking about? You've been told, your views aren't necessarily
immutable.
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Excellent. But only by God's grace can anyone be in the "light". And quoting Bible verses, does not mean that you or anyone else is somehow in the "light" and not in the "darkness". One who shows others the kind of love Jesus showed the world (full of "sinners"), is proving a lot more than a religious person spewing their own concepts of rules and regulations.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Oh GOD! Who here has claimed to be sinless, or not in need of grace? From where do you get this
ATTITUDE, 1John??!! FROM WHERE?
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
Yep. Understood.
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Again, 1John... you need the same grace (that keeps you from being consummed where you sit), as anyone else seeking "truth".
And we have arrived at different places to worship.
How many "
denominations" are there in the "Christian" family?
Too bad not equally.
All who are in Christ, are indeed equals. And I think Jesus opened the doors WIDE, to all human beings.
It appears that in The Gay Agenda, that laws will be passed to only attack Christians that disagree with homosexual interpretations and religious and secular freedoms.
Paranoia and abject stereotyping of homosexual people, are what's represented in that statement.
The Bible does not promote or condone Christians joining our adversaries.
1John, the Bible actually says more about LOVING one's enemies, than you have consistently related within this forum.
It is time to see the writing on the wall, and what is being weighed and what is being found wanting. Altering or expunging the New Testament is pure attack and hatred towards Christians. Whatever fate is in store for people who engage in homosexuality, changing and altering the Bible is not sanctioned in anyone's future.
Again, the same grace afforded everyone, is the same grace you enjoy. YOU don't necessarily get to define "truth" for everyone.
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord, unedited and unaltered.
Sometimes, I don't think we are talking about the same "Lord". God will have to sort that out; I just don't know.
In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Do you mean homosexuals? Or is it not yet clear to you, that even the most clean-looking religious folks could be absolutely
ROTTEN inside?
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
What do you believe you "know" of what God has told the millions of homosexual people; many who have struggled in ways you cannot come close to fathoming? Do you think you know? (I'm practically certain that you don't really know as much, as you wish people would believe you do.)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
That is a far more "spiritual" fucntion, than I believe you've illustrated within this forum. You aren't put here, to be God's personal anti-gay morals ENFORCINATOR. You were put here to be excellent within YOURSELF (by God's grace), and subsequently pass that goodness on to others, via LOVE. You don't get to PUSH your religious views, then try to SELL IT as "love"; it just doesn't work that way.
Melikio wrote:
The Bible can/will always be argued between people (nothing new about that), but that book will not always be a relevant as it seems to be today... that will come about by necessity, slowly but surely.
Of course this is likely going to happen. But as I said before, the essence of the message of Christ need not be LOST, as a result of people looking at and interpreting things "differently". I think what Jesus did for mankind, was/is far more resilient than any disagreements or differences we all might have.
It is clear that the writers of the New Testament advising believers in Christ Jesus (called Christians first at Antioch) didn't see doctrine as some day not being relevant.
People change (in many ways), and so does the religion they embrace. What is spiritual may not be "altered", but views of those who adhere to what is "faith" based, most certainly changes with time. History and even the Bible shows that is true enough.
We Christians cannot claim ignorance or excuses.
Many can, and often omit themselves from doing what is right/just, out of regard for mere human traditions. History show that happened more than a few times, as well.
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
And without God's grace, WHO WOULD NOT be included in that very list of "characteristics"?
They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
I've seen some nice-looking, well dressed wolves in my lifetime. I've seen so-called "Chrsitans" say the most cruel and dehumanizing things I've ever heard (at close range). They think what they are doing is loving others, when they are nothing more than assassins of freewill and grace. They mean to control that which they do not understand or fear, rather than be as excellent as they might be, by the very grace of God (afforded ALL in Christ Jesus). They are MEAN, ANGRY and HARSH people.
Why don't I confuse them with Jesus? (Think about it.)
But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
Likely very true, in most cases.
Whatever fate awaits Christians in this rapidly changing world and its moral decay, the word of God remains.
If those who are poised to promote solutions are not people of LOVE (1Cor13), then they have NOTHING of real value to offer this world period.
"It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
And that could be ANYONE, ANYTIME. We don't choose who that will be or when it will happen.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
And that hope is for ALL who "believe".
The Gospel is to be preached unaltered - no matter what - until the end of time.
The meaning of the Gospel must ultimately be communicated through love (spiritually); people will ALWAYS interpret "words" in unique ways. God's love is the real glue that ultimately holds things together (for His purposes).
-Mel-
:):) BUT I DO NOT> I DO NOT HAVE TO .and It is not what I think I know it is what I know because of the Proof I have within and what I have had happen that ONLY GOD COULD be the answer. according to the SCRIPTURES. THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND me and also within . so THAT is all the PROOF I NEED TO believe that GODS WORD is TRUTH.
