How can we possibly have free will?
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Compassionist
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How can we possibly have free will?
Post #1How can we possibly have free will? Without omnipotence, it is impossible to have free will. We, biological organisms, are all prisoners of causality. We are all doomed to be conceived without our consent, doomed to do the inevitable, doomed to suffer and doomed to die. If I were truly free, I would have already gone back in time and prevented all suffering and injustice by making everyone equally omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent and omniculpable. Please see: and and https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... p-in-brain Thank you.
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ttruscott
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Re: How can we possibly have free will?
Post #2Why so?Compassionist wrote: How can we possibly have free will? Without omnipotence, it is impossible to have free will.
This has nothing to say about spirits with free will. I agree most biological humans have no free will but not for these reasons.We, biological organisms, are all prisoners of causality. We are all doomed to be conceived without our consent, doomed to do the inevitable, doomed to suffer and doomed to die.
How does mere freedom to choose grant the power to create??? Or to time travel? Or to do what GOD could not do within HIS purpose?If I were truly free, I would have already gone back in time and prevented all suffering and injustice by making everyone equally omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent and omniculpable.
Are you suggesting that a free will is the ability to choose anything we want or can conceive of and then we can do it or get it? This is absurd and we left this definition behind in high school.
A free will is a will (the decision making process that chooses between options) that is not coerced by someone or some other power than the person's own choice between the options. No pertinent option can be either withheld from us or forced upon us for our will to be free.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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2ndRateMind
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Post #3
I note merely that freedom of will is fundamental to ideas around justice. If we are not free, then punishing someone for their ill thoughts, words and deeds seems cruel. Or indeed, rewarding people for their good or appropriate thoughts, words and deeds seems superfluous.
In such a scenario, the best that can be expected of punishments and rewards is that it might alter the circumstances in which people make their unfree decisions, perhaps deterring some, and encouraging others.
Whether or not humans are free, I think society as currently contrived makes sense if and only if humans are free. If we aren't, life is no more than a sadistic joke, perpetrated by God, and the establishment 'great and good', on the rest of us, for their own benefit. And I, for one, cannot comfortably contemplate such a travesty of virtue.
Best wishes, 2RM.
In such a scenario, the best that can be expected of punishments and rewards is that it might alter the circumstances in which people make their unfree decisions, perhaps deterring some, and encouraging others.
Whether or not humans are free, I think society as currently contrived makes sense if and only if humans are free. If we aren't, life is no more than a sadistic joke, perpetrated by God, and the establishment 'great and good', on the rest of us, for their own benefit. And I, for one, cannot comfortably contemplate such a travesty of virtue.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Post #5
[Replying to post 3 by 2ndRateMind]
We punish people all the time that had no free will.
Example: A black child (Jim) is born to a 16 year old heroin addict/prostitute mother in a Detroit gang area with a gang member as a father. When Jim was born he suffered heroin withdraw and the doctors predicted he would have low IQ and possible other mental disorders. In the next few years he had 5 brothers and sisters by the time he was tem. Jim was expected to take care of his brothers and sisters while his mother took in men for money. Jim made it through the sixth grade and was forced to drop out at age 13 to make money to help feed his brothers and sisters. He got involved with same gang his birth father was a member. The gang members told him he needed to sell drugs or sisters would be raped. Not wanting to have raped had started drugs. Of course the police caught him with the drugs and he was converted for procession and sale of drugs.
So, lets see where he had free will.
Bron in a gang area?
Born to drug user that gave him a low IQ?
Forced to drop outof school at 13 when he was two bejind vebacuse of the low IQ?
Joined the area gang since his father said it was a great life. Free will?
Froced to sell drugs or see sisters raped. Free will?
Went to jail. Free will?
We punish people all the time that had no free will.
Example: A black child (Jim) is born to a 16 year old heroin addict/prostitute mother in a Detroit gang area with a gang member as a father. When Jim was born he suffered heroin withdraw and the doctors predicted he would have low IQ and possible other mental disorders. In the next few years he had 5 brothers and sisters by the time he was tem. Jim was expected to take care of his brothers and sisters while his mother took in men for money. Jim made it through the sixth grade and was forced to drop out at age 13 to make money to help feed his brothers and sisters. He got involved with same gang his birth father was a member. The gang members told him he needed to sell drugs or sisters would be raped. Not wanting to have raped had started drugs. Of course the police caught him with the drugs and he was converted for procession and sale of drugs.
So, lets see where he had free will.
Bron in a gang area?
Born to drug user that gave him a low IQ?
Forced to drop outof school at 13 when he was two bejind vebacuse of the low IQ?
Joined the area gang since his father said it was a great life. Free will?
Froced to sell drugs or see sisters raped. Free will?
Went to jail. Free will?
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2ndRateMind
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Post #6
[Replying to post 5 by Donray]
The honourable gentleman has a solid point, and made it well. It is clear to me that those of us who do have a freedom of will unencumbered by adverse circumstances should do all we can to extend that privilege to those who don't.
Best wishes, 2RM.
The honourable gentleman has a solid point, and made it well. It is clear to me that those of us who do have a freedom of will unencumbered by adverse circumstances should do all we can to extend that privilege to those who don't.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Post #7
[Replying to post 6 by 2ndRateMind]
Why do you think you had free will?
Did you chose what schools you attended as a child? I bet your parents chose or you just attended school where your lived and you not choose where lived.
Your education that you no choice most likly influnced what hihger education had and wht carree you went into. Again a chain of stuff that you had no free choice.
Another example I bet your parents were Christin and tey made you atend church and pray. Again you had no choice.
Maybe all what you think were choices were predetermined from who you born to and what schools and teachers you had , etc.
Did you have free will on whatever work you had to make a living? Or were choices limited to what your boss said you could do? Did you have free choice on how much money you could make?
Why do you think you had free will?
Did you chose what schools you attended as a child? I bet your parents chose or you just attended school where your lived and you not choose where lived.
Your education that you no choice most likly influnced what hihger education had and wht carree you went into. Again a chain of stuff that you had no free choice.
Another example I bet your parents were Christin and tey made you atend church and pray. Again you had no choice.
Maybe all what you think were choices were predetermined from who you born to and what schools and teachers you had , etc.
Did you have free will on whatever work you had to make a living? Or were choices limited to what your boss said you could do? Did you have free choice on how much money you could make?
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bluethread
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Post #8
If all we are is biological organisms that follow the rules of matter and motion, the latter would be irrelevant, because how our thoughts and choices effect our neurons, would be also dictated by the rules of matter and motion.jgh7 wrote: Free will feels like a chicken/egg debate.
Either the way our neurons fire and dictate our thoughts and choices. Or our thoughts and choices dictate the way our neurons fire.
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2ndRateMind
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Post #9
To be sure I think I have freedom of will. My life history is a story of good decisions and bad. Through my formative years, I had a lot of help in building my character such that I would make good decisions, but despite that, I have made many mistakes. I acknowledge with gratitude all those who worked to help make my decisions good; my mistakes I claim for myself and myself alone.
As WE Henley puts it:
'...It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.'
Best wishes, 2RM.
Post #10
[Replying to post 9 by 2ndRateMind]
So you select what schools you want to when you were six?
You determined if you want church and your parents had no input?
No, like the example of Jim I gave you to had most of your choices predertermined.
You had no choice but to be come a Christain. Bet you never tought of becoming a jew or Muslim. Right?
Bet yoy had jobs where you needed to toe the copant line and not do things your way. Someone else controlled you. Even if had no boss and worked for yourself you would have had your cliets controlling what choices you could make.
Also do you belive that God has a plan? I was a project manager and had a plan for th projects. The people carring out the plan did not have free will to do what they wanted. They did what I wanted to make sure the plan was followed. So if God has plan then you do not have free will put are controlled by the plan and therefor GOD.
So you select what schools you want to when you were six?
You determined if you want church and your parents had no input?
No, like the example of Jim I gave you to had most of your choices predertermined.
You had no choice but to be come a Christain. Bet you never tought of becoming a jew or Muslim. Right?
Bet yoy had jobs where you needed to toe the copant line and not do things your way. Someone else controlled you. Even if had no boss and worked for yourself you would have had your cliets controlling what choices you could make.
Also do you belive that God has a plan? I was a project manager and had a plan for th projects. The people carring out the plan did not have free will to do what they wanted. They did what I wanted to make sure the plan was followed. So if God has plan then you do not have free will put are controlled by the plan and therefor GOD.
