Why Paul?

[Elijah John]

These questions are open to all, but I would be especially interested in feedback from Evangelicals, Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses honor Paul's opinions as "sacred scripture" when he never really mentions the Kingdom of God?

Also, Paul seems to place the name of Jesus above all, even above the name of Jehovah. Paul's own Bible states that there IS salvation in the name of the LORD (Jehovah) yet Paul contradicts, saying "there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved". (referring to the name of Jesus)

And if Paul's writings are sacred scripture, why do Evangelicals have women preachers (some quite prominent), and listen to women preachers, when Paul taught that women are not to speak in Church? (picking and choosing here??)

And for Catholics, Paul wasn't even a Pope. Why give his opinions more weight than say, a Papal Encyclical?

To tie it all together, why do so many regard Paul's pastoral advice and theological speculations as "sacred scripture"?

[Elijah John]

So Paul wasn't placing Jesus above Yahweh. He was recognizing that they were co-equal, that is, that they are both God. And, I might add, they have both always been that.

So the Son has a name, "Jesus" or Yahshua. Jesus alludes to the Father's name in the Lord's prayer. What is the Father's name? Note, Jesus said "hallowed be thy name". He did not say "hallowed our name".

So, YHVH alone is God. The Father alone is God. YHVH is the name of the Father. Jesus is not YHVH*, therefore Jesus is not God.

(*no one in the Bible called Jesus YHVH, nor did Jesus call himself YHVH.)

[TripleZ]

These questions are open to all, but I would be especially interested in feedback from Evangelicals, Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses honor Paul's opinions as "sacred scripture" when he never really mentions the Kingdom of God?

Also, Paul seems to place the name of Jesus above all, even above the name of Jehovah. Paul's own Bible states that there IS salvation in the name of the LORD (Jehovah) yet Paul contradicts, saying "there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved". (referring to the name of Jesus)

And if Paul's writings are sacred scripture, why do Evangelicals have women preachers (some quite prominent), and listen to women preachers, when Paul taught that women are not to speak in Church? (picking and choosing here??)

And for Catholics, Paul wasn't even a Pope. Why give his opinions more weight than say, a Papal Encyclical?

To tie it all together, why do so many regard Paul's pastoral advice and theological speculations as "sacred scripture"?

Rom_14:17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, shalom and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh.
1Co_4:20 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of words but of power.
1Co_6:9 Don't you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't delude yourselves — people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality,
1Co_6:10 who steal, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob — none of them will share in the Kingdom of God.
1Co_15:24 then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power.
1Co_15:50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
Gal_5:21 and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God!
Eph_5:5 For of this you can be sure: every sexually immoral, impure or greedy person — that is, every idol-worshipper — has no share in the Kingdom of the Messiah and of God.
Col_1:13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son.
Col_4:11 Yeshua, the one called Justus, also sends greetings. These three are among the Circumcised; and among my fellow workers for the Kingdom of God, only they have turned out to be a comfort to me.
1Th_2:12 we encouraged you and comforted you and appealed to you to lead lives worthy of God, who calls you into his Kingdom and glory.
2Th_1:5 This is clear evidence that God's judgment is just; and as a result, you will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God for which you are suffering.
2Ti_4:1 I solemnly charge you before God and the Messiah Yeshua, who will judge the living and the dead when he appears and establishes his Kingdom:
2Ti_4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and bring me safely into his heavenly Kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Heb_1:8 but to the Son, he says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; you rule your Kingdom with a scepter of equity;
Heb_12:28 Therefore, since we have received an unshakeable Kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may offer service that will please God, with reverence and fear.

[Elijah John]

These questions are open to all, but I would be especially interested in feedback from Evangelicals, Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses honor Paul's opinions as "sacred scripture" when he never really mentions the Kingdom of God?

Also, Paul seems to place the name of Jesus above all, even above the name of Jehovah. Paul's own Bible states that there IS salvation in the name of the LORD (Jehovah) yet Paul contradicts, saying "there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved". (referring to the name of Jesus)

And if Paul's writings are sacred scripture, why do Evangelicals have women preachers (some quite prominent), and listen to women preachers, when Paul taught that women are not to speak in Church? (picking and choosing here??)

And for Catholics, Paul wasn't even a Pope. Why give his opinions more weight than say, a Papal Encyclical?

To tie it all together, why do so many regard Paul's pastoral advice and theological speculations as "sacred scripture"?

Rom_14:17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, shalom and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh.
1Co_4:20 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of words but of power.
1Co_6:9 Don't you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't delude yourselves — people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality,
1Co_6:10 who steal, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob — none of them will share in the Kingdom of God.
1Co_15:24 then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power.
1Co_15:50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
Gal_5:21 and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God!
Eph_5:5 For of this you can be sure: every sexually immoral, impure or greedy person — that is, every idol-worshipper — has no share in the Kingdom of the Messiah and of God.
Col_1:13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son.
Col_4:11 Yeshua, the one called Justus, also sends greetings. These three are among the Circumcised; and among my fellow workers for the Kingdom of God, only they have turned out to be a comfort to me.
1Th_2:12 we encouraged you and comforted you and appealed to you to lead lives worthy of God, who calls you into his Kingdom and glory.
2Th_1:5 This is clear evidence that God's judgment is just; and as a result, you will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God for which you are suffering.
2Ti_4:1 I solemnly charge you before God and the Messiah Yeshua, who will judge the living and the dead when he appears and establishes his Kingdom:
2Ti_4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and bring me safely into his heavenly Kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Heb_1:8 but to the Son, he says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; you rule your Kingdom with a scepter of equity;
Heb_12:28 Therefore, since we have received an unshakeable Kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may offer service that will please God, with reverence and fear.

OK, I stand corrected about the Kingdom of God part. Buty there is more to the OP. Care to address the other points therein?

[JehovahsWitness]

So God is Savior. Jesus is Savior. Therefore, Jesus must be God. .

Sounds like circular reasoning.

More like a logical fallacy:

Apple are green.
Cars are green.
Therefore my car must be an apple.

[Overcomer]

Elijah John wrote:

In what sense is Jesus Savior?

He died to atone for our sins, thus providing salvation for us. That makes him a Saviour as these verses attest to:

John 1:29 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 1:15: It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Luke 19:1:"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Acts 13:23:"From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

Titus 2:13:looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Matthew 1:21:"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Acts 4:12:"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

2 Timothy 1:10: but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

1 Timothy 4:10: For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 John 4:14: We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

We are all born with sin natures that we cannot change no matter how hard we try. Since the wages of sin is death, we are all condemned to death. Animal sacrifices only covered sins temporarily. Jesus, sin-free because he was both GOD and Man, died in our place so that, once and for all, our sins are forgiven. He gives us right-standing with God when we accept his gift of salvation in faith. That's what makes him Saviour.

[Overcomer]

Jehovah's Witness wrote:

Apple are green.
Cars are green.
Therefore my car must be an apple.

That's cute! LOL! And it gave me a good laugh. But you're avoiding the issue. God says that he alone is God and he alone is Saviour. Jesus is called both God and Saviour over and over again in numerous books of the Bible by numerous authors. How do you reconcile that?

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witness wrote:

Apple are green.
Cars are green.
Therefore my car must be an apple.

That's cute! LOL! And it gave me a good laugh. But you're avoiding the issue. God says that he alone is God and he alone is Saviour. Jesus is called both God and Saviour over and over again in numerous books of the Bible by numerous authors. How do you reconcile that?

Because others call Jesus "savior" does not make him "God". And if only YHVH is savior, than perhaps it means that since Jesus is not God, he is not "savior" either. At least not in the sense it is used in the book of Isiaiah, the Psalms and other places in the OT.

Seems folks are conflating "savior" with "atoner". The object of sacrifice is not by necessity the "savior". Is a lamb, goat, bull or pigeon, "savior"?

Are the OT Priests who slaughter these animals slaughtering their "savior"? Is a Voodoo priest who slaughters a chicken slaughtering his savior?

.

[JehovahsWitness]

God says that he alone is God and he alone is Saviour. Jesus is called both God and Saviour over and over again in numerous books of the Bible by numerous authors. How do you reconcile that?

Jesus is not called "God" in "numerous books of the bible by numerous authors" (to my knowledge he is referred to as "god" once by a bible writer, in the book of Isaiah. The gospel writers reported that the Apostle Thomas called Jesus his "god". So that makes twice, hardly "numerous"

Jesus is, however often referred to in scripture as as our "savior". More on this point in post #19 below.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post #18 by JehovahsWitness]

World English Bible
I myself am Yahweh; and besides me there is no savior.- Isaiah 43:11

QUESTION How can we reconcile the fact that Isaiah 43 has YHWH declaring himself "alone" savior with the fact that the title savior is also attributed to Jesus?

The word "alone" does not have to be taken in its absolute sense.

For example we can speak of "eating 'alone' in a restaurant" when in fact there were other diners present as well as waiters and kitchen staff. We are not "alone" in the absolute sense we use the word "alone" here in the relative, meaning there was nobody at my table with me, sharing the experience; that in a particular sense I was indeed "alone".

Jehovah (Yahweh/YHWH) is the ultimate source of salvation and "alone" in his position as the supreme first cause of all salvation. In that sense he occupies a unique "table" or position that he does not share with anyone else.

In view of the above then, "alone" does not therefore mean that YHWH (Jehovah) can never use instruments or agents to achieve his ends or that nobody can legitimately be referred to by the same title.



JW



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 983#782983


Further Reading

https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -holy.html
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[showme]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

It was Catholic and Protestant Trinitarians who decided the present canon, so why isn't it fair game for a Jehovah's Witness to question whether a given book or author belongs in the Bible?

The term "double minded" comes to mind. The destination of "double minded", is having no mind in the end. As for JWs, they follow their leaders. The guys that come to the houses, they are pretty much without biblical foundation of any kind.