If Jesus is God, why didn't he teach..

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:16 am

If Jesus is God, why didn't he teach anyone to pray to Jesus? If he had, do you think his apostles would have been able to take him seriously?

If the notion of praying to Jesus was ridiculous in his own day, then isn't the notion that Jesus is God also ridiculous?

EBA · Post by **EBA** » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 pm

Sorry to butt in here, but nowhere in scripture does it tell us:

shnarkle wrote: He says he lays down his life of his own free will.

Peace.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:24 am

[Replying to shnarkle]

Yes and the Word was God. Jesus is the Word in the Gospel of John chapter 1 and the word became flesh (true man) and the word was God (true God). Jesus is true God and true man. Seems you have a problem with the Gospel of John.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:30 am

[Replying to post 90 by shnarkle]

What I ment was he couldent refuse God because he is God.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:31 am

[Replying to post 90 by shnarkle]

What I ment was he couldent refuse God because he is God.

tam · Post by **tam** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:54 am

Peace to you!

EBA wrote: Sorry to butt in here, but nowhere in scripture does it tell us:

shnarkle wrote: He says he lays down his life of his own free will.
Peace.

Might not be the exact same words, but same meaning as this, yes?

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:17, 18

Peace to you all, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

EBA · Post by **EBA** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:56 am

tam wrote: Peace to you!

Hi Tam, nice to meet you and I hope you are well.

tam wrote:Might not be the exact same words, but same meaning as this, yes?

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:17, 18

Well, no not quite.

That translation is a bit odd;

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-

Really????? That's why the Father loves his son?

I'm a father of two daughters and I love them SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE MY DAUGHTERS!

Now I'm aware that is not the point here. The point is, did Christ have the free will to lay his life down and the answer is NO HE DID NOT.

In fact (or better yet, scriptural fact) he was destined to lay his life down: "This command I received from my Father."

and if that's not enough proof just look at Act 4:27-28

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

And who determined that Christ would lay his life down?

The Father did. And was Christ's will in line with his Father's will? Yes it was, however Jesus knew that his Father's will be done. That is not FREE WILL.

God Bless you and I hope you recognize this truth.

Peace to you all, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy[/quote]

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:21 am

EBA wrote: Sorry to butt in here, but nowhere in scripture does it tell us:

shnarkle wrote: He says he lays down his life of his own free will.
Peace.

John 10:18 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:29 am

Jack wrote: [Replying to shnarkle]

Yes and the Word was God. Jesus is the Word in the Gospel of John chapter 1 and the word became flesh (true man) and the word was God (true God). Jesus is true God and true man. Seems you have a problem with the Gospel of John.

John's gospel is what I'm using to prove my point. I obviously don't have a problem with it. I'm showing that it agrees with what Paul says as well as the fact that I'm not the one violating the law of non contradiction. The origin of existence cannot be, apart from being. Paul is clear in pointing out that God is the origin of all that exists. My points are coherent and agree with each other. Yours don't. You believe that Jesus became Jesus. The text nowhere makes these claims.

John never claims that God was the word. John is quite clear in pointing out that all things were created by the word, therefore the word is not a thing, and neither is God. Neither God nor the word can objectively exist unless one conflates the Creator with creation. Paul condemns this perspective in Romans 1

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:43 am

[Replying to post 96 by EBA]

Jesus knew that his Father's will be done. That is not FREE WILL.

Sure it is. Just becuase someone knows what you're going to do beforehand doesn't negate one's free will, even if that one is you or God. They aren't mutually exclusive propositions. Jesus told Peter he would deny him, but you don't see Peter getting bent because he has no free will now, do you?

Jesus' will was in line with his father's will. This doesn't negate his will, it only shows that they are in alliignment with each other.

Now if you were to make the argument that his will was subjugated to the motions of his heart, and therefiore no longer free; you might have a point. However, it was still done willingly through self denial. When the self is abolished, there is only God's will. Nevertheless, Jesus points out that he is not an automaton.

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:58 am

Jack wrote: [Replying to post 90 by shnarkle]

What I ment was he couldent refuse God because he is God.

I understand what you meant. To say he couldn't is to claim he didn't have the ability. This is false. To say he wouldn't points out that he does have the ability, but would never make that decision or take that path. Big difference.

God has no form. God is the origin of form. Therefore Jesus is not God. Christ is the manifestation of God's will in form. He is "informed" of God's will, and informs us as well. He is the means of informing us of God. God is the origin of that means by which he is revealed. You are conflating the two. It's difficult not to when Christ is essentially the ground of being. It is through Christ that God exists. Christ originates in God, and God exists through Christ. Nevertheless, being is only an attribute of God. Ultimately God can only be manifest through Christ. This is why the texts state that all power and glory are given to Christ.

Nevertheless, one doesn't pray objectively "to" Christ. One must have the spirit indwelling subjectively to pray in the first place, and that negates the idea to pray to a god that objectively exists in the created world. Christ prevents us from engaging in idolatry.

Those who pray "to" Christ engage in idolatry while those who pray "in" Christ don't.